Fire, Blood & Consequences

For the 94th episode of the pod, we look back on House of the Dragon Season 3 after a few weeks of distance and decide it’s a great looking season that often fails to earn its big swings. We praise the battles and performances while calling out pacing problems, confusing character choices, and missing payoffs that should have hit harder.

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First Reactions After The Finale

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Dancing with Dragons Podcast. I'm Tony.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

And I'm Inua.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

And today we're breaking down all of House of the Dragons season three, the moments we love, the choices that drove us crazy, the characters who surprised us, the biggest changes from Fire and Blood, and of course the dragons. So, well, season three, everything we wanted it to be. So let's get into it. It's been what? Today is the 31st of August, or August 31st, if you live in the US here. And it's three full weeks, I think, after the actual finale aired.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Have any of your overall thoughts changed in those three weeks about it I still feel the same.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

I I will say that I think, if I'm not mistaken, it was a bigger gap between uh when season two ended and when we recorded like our overall season thoughts with um uh Chandra and Lewis. Like I think there was a bigger gap, if I'm not mistaken, because I remember when we came back to record our season two overview, I came back with different review or thoughts. I had a and something that really surprised you as well on the comments. I mean on that episode. But now I'm pretty much the same. Like there's nothing that's really changed for the better or the worse. I think the same. Maybe it'll change in a few more weeks in a month or so, but for now it's been pretty much the same. If you've been listening, you know how I feel. And yeah, what's about you, Tony?

SPEAKER_02 1:26

I feel the same as well. Season three reminded me of roller coaster. You know, it had its ups and its downs, it had its great moments, its bewildering moments that were like, what why are they what are they doing? Uh, but to say disappointing would be, I think, too harsh, in my opinion. I'm gonna call it, and I don't know if this is any better. I'll call it an adequate season of television. For season four, whenever that comes up, I've decided I'm officially gonna stop judging the show by comparing it to the source material because there's no point. And I feel like I've said that a million times, but I wanted to just say that right here. I'm gonna write it down and just you know, make him believe I'm running. Uh, because I keep I kept well, we kept holding out hope for that the show would eventually return to being more faithful to fire and blood. And but how you know I feel like we were so naive there. We should have just trusted George once he departed from this process. We're like, that should have been the biggest red flag for us, right? I I think my biggest issue with the season was the lack of payoffs with the so many storylines, too many arcs that were dragged out for far too long. And they kind of had a payoff, but it wasn't justified. Instead of building towards something satisfying, they often just slowed the pace down, which just kind of drove us crazy. You would get those first three episodes, you're like, Okay, wow, this is it right here. This is gonna be really, really good. And then we get episode four, five, six. Again, the same thing that happened with season two. It wasn't that nothing happened, it was that so much happened without fe without feeling like it was actually going somewhere. I don't remember that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

No, that does, that does, because I have, I guess, a similar um review or similar comments. Um, I think for me, instead of saying it was just disappointing or that it was, I guess, just overall a letdown, I would say that for me, I felt that it was full of confusing decisions and it confused me why they did what they did with certain storylines and characters, and I think that the show or the season started off strong, but then all the changes kind of made that momentum die down pretty fast. It's reached the peak too early with episodes one to three, and then as you said, this the writers dragged on the storylines for far too long. At times I was worried that they were repeating the same mistakes of season two where nothing was happening. Um, but for me it just felt that instead of nothing happening, what's what happened was that confusing things were happening rather than nothing happening, if that makes sense. Um we're gonna dive into it, you know, I guess plot line but plotline, character by character, but that's how I guess I would describe it overall. And something that I also think is reminiscent of season two, I guess, but is more confusing with season three, is that it felt like the writers at times I guess didn't really understand their viewers, and there is a bit of a disconnect between um the writers and George and also the writers and the viewers. So I'm ready to like expand on all of those notes as we go into its specific storylines. I don't know if you have a uh place where you want to start off with the season, um, because I I have a lot to talk about.

What Season Three Gets Right

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Well, let me just um before we go all negative um here, I want to talk about some positives, and I think uh there's plenty to like in the show, and it's something which is weird because we're gonna talk here and we like this is this and this and that, and we don't like this, and then go, oh well, 7.5. Just we have to justify giving it a seven or or or above because it's gonna sound like by the end we're giving it a two or something, and it's it's not the case. Uh, the production, costume, music, everything technical, obviously, it's beautiful, top-notch. The world looks lived in, the visual effects obviously are great, the dragons look amazing. Um, or whatever my issue is with the story is not denying that it's one of the best-looking shows on TV. Uh, the Battle of the Gullet, the Battle of Tumpleton were both shot great, uh, executed extremely well. There are moments where it reminds you how impressive it can be. And even though I kind of had issues with the dragon Mexican standoff what we had in the area of the Vale, uh, I can't deny that it was an awesome sequence. Um, seeing those dragons face off was incredible, and it's something that when you you're dying to see dragon battles, and then you're reminded that you don't want to see dragon battles because you don't want to see these magnificent beasts die and get injured and hurt. I loved uh the performances, everybody's just incredible actors, besides the Masari again, which I felt I what's her name? I I can't I don't I need to we I really have have to have something in front of me that has all the cast, just like it just to get them. Um I thought she did better in season two, and I think in season three she went back to acting like she was in season one, so that drove me crazy. Um Emma Darcy, those first few episodes, incredible stuff. I'm pretty sure she'll get an Emmy nomination. Uh Matt Smith. I mean, everybody's just great, and and this that's there's nothing we're gonna uh complain about when it comes to the acting, it's just where their characters are are taken to and how they're written. There are moments, there are shots in this uh season that are are some of my favorite shots of all of like Game of Thrones in the franchise.

Alicent’s Confusing Season Arc

SPEAKER_02 7:25

I think I want to just start by talking about one of the biggest missteps, and and that's the character of Allison. There's a lot of characters that had really much nothing to do in this season, and she's she takes the cake. I mean, yeah, I mean that this is something that they screwed up. I mean, they wanted to have Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook act together, and it's great, they're wonderful, they're amazing. I think we needed to have Alison become take a stand and stop regretting her decisions and stop trying to be in trying to make her sympathetic and just I I wish they would have just made her team green and go back to team green, and we could have real real conflict instead of I'm gonna go and try to kill my son. No, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I completely agree with you, I guess, on Alison's. I think that's what we all expected, right? That's what we kind of discussed in the beginning of the season, which is oh, what's the event that's going to make Alice go back to Team Greens? Because it's very unexpected and out of the blue that she was Rhenira's most efficient soldier this season. Like she was the one that was standing on business and making sure that um I guess Rhenira, you know, had someone in her corner. Um I guess it feels confusing to use my my this is gonna be my go-to word of this episode, confusing.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Um why I mean, you know, she we just see Addison completely kind of be okay with killing her own child, and we know that she recognizes that her her kids or her sons are mad and and and problematic, but it just feels I don't know, it feels a bit too much, and maybe we'll see that her we'll see her go back to Team Greens after her lina's death and you know season four. But yeah, it just felt very out of the blue for her to be Renee's most efficient soldier, but then at the same time accomplished nothing because she didn't really do anything. Um but before I I go down on the I guess cons for the season, um I do want to say my pros for season three, which um I do have a couple, and I do agree with you on some uh points. There are some like technically very well um well-shot scenes, well-executed moments, such as the Battle of the Girls, I thought was really uh a highlight of the season. Um, story-wise, I think episodes one to three were highlights. Battle of the Girls was done well, um, solid opener for the season, even though it was supposed to be the penultimate of the last season. It worked as an opener, even though I was worried about that uh heavily uh last season. I thought that it worked. Um and my highlight of the season is episode two and seeing Renera take the throne. Um for me, I felt everything I wanted to feel when I was anticipating seeing the scene online, you know. Um I wasn't let down in any way. It's exactly the way I wanted to react, if that makes sense. I I didn't feel disappointed in any way, and it they delivered is what I'm trying to say. They really delivered when it came to that scene. And with episode three, the way they kind of constructed it, and I remember me saying that it felt like a horror movie. Um, because you see Renera kind of, you know, you see the the the stresses and uh pressure mounting uh little by little in episode three, and she's menstruating. So for me, just that moment as well, and including that, and it just it it worked really well for me, and I thought it was really well done because that's all something you don't see in a fantasy show. I thought that it just started off really, really well with those three episodes for House of the Dragon season three. It was you know, it made me like tell my brother call him and tell him you just need you need to catch up because he's so behind on the show. And I told him we need to catch up on House of the Dragon already. The season is gonna be so good. It's there's not like season two, you know. You may we might have heard criticism because he's back in season one. I said you might have heard stuff about season through two that put you off, and it's a bit slow, but trust me, season three is gonna be different. And then episodes four, five, six, seven, and eight, all about ten, and they kind of just dragged us out a bit longer. So um it's a bit, you know, frustrating that I guess for me that momentum didn't last until episode eight. Um because everything was well established then and there in season three, you know, in episode three, I mean um the stresses, the the pressure, um all of the things that are uh like you know, they're showing us that it's not really Renera that's unfit to rule. It's more so that she's dealing with uh incredibly hard circumstances and she's coming in completely unprepared for this. She wants to, you know, rule. She wants to come in and take the throne and have it be a celebration as she expected it to, as is her right, but she's taking the throne, but is left with a mess of that that that uh house I mean not like the hot house green, but like the greens created. So it's very uh frustrating for an era, and you don't need episodes four, five, six, and seven to uh continue to build on that. Episodes three and and uh four, let's say, could have just expanded on that, but then why I mean drag that out until the very end. If I was gonna spoil the book, I could have said, Oh, you know, uh I was gonna make an outline and say season three will end with this happening, and yet it it didn't even happen yet. I was gonna like what I expected season three to end with. Yeah, I can't even imagine them adapting it anymore. You know, like season what the finale of season three should have happened by episode five. Episode five and six, that should have been a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah, no, I I I think what happened is that they made this season with you know Orman Hightower as the big baddie. Let's just make this a whole season-length, you know, Hightower in Tumbleton versus Renair King's Landing. I agree that that first battle of Tumbleton could have happened in episode five or six, but trying to build this relationship with Orman and Daron, and you're you're seeing, and it worked really well. You're like, wow, he is psychologically, mentally torturing this kid. Do you feel sympathy for Daron? And then there's no payoff for that. No, Orman dies. Is Daron alive somewhere? Is he in the rubble? Did he escape? So there wasn't any great scene at the end where Daron puts his foot down and takes a stand. And but we don't get to see that. We don't get to see him fight to Sarion. The Masaria thing drove me once the more I thought about

Rhaenyra, Mysaria, And The Why

SPEAKER_02 14:00

it. Yeah, that drove me more insane because you have this mistress of whispers, and when did she ever deliver anything? I mean, other than every every time she found some kind of bit of news, she never told Renera.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

And not knowing and being fired from the job and then having the show, why wouldn't Ranera put her in a cell? Like Damon would have just said, put her in a cell, or you're gonna have to get rid of her. And that's gonna obviously it's gonna backfire, of course.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, and on that Missaria note, I mean, it's really just went nowhere, that whole storyline. And I I just don't get it, you know, like another confusing decision. I'd why build up this, I don't want to call it a love triangle, but this tension triangle between her, Damon, and Missaria, like Reneira and Missaria and Damon, why? We have enough trouble, we have enough issues for them to deal with. It served no narrative purpose because if they're gonna show some okay, additional, I guess, drama that Renera, for example, can be vulnerable with Masaria in a way that she can't be with Damon, why? Even if that's what you're trying to depict, why? Daemon was always there for her. Missaria, what did Masaria do for her? Missaria's just telling her what she needs to hear. And by having Rheneira kind of eat that up, you're making her a weaker character. Make Rhenira smart. Why are you making her, you know, I guess accept that? You know what I mean? Like it's just it's frustrating because we want to be rooting for someone that's not believe that. And we can say, oh, you know, but she's a multidimensional character and she'll make mistakes. But there's just no reason to. Damon supported her through everything. Why? She has no reason to trust him, sorry, whereas she has reasons to trust Damon.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, that that drove me crazy. Like, why would you always have doubt and trepidation from trusting Damon? And then this woman, you're like, Yeah, my son just passed or was murdered two days ago. Yes, let's let's let's get freaky. Like, why are you thinking about that? And what drove me crazy, and that other people have mentioned this, is that we never got to see there was a a still image of uh behind or an image of season three before the season came out of Damon and Renera kissing.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, I've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

That was deleted, that was never shown in the show. So we don't have that, right? That drove me crazy, as many others. Jace and Baylor were betrothed in season one. They never shared anything remotely to be romantic, they never kissed at all. He's dead, that's never gonna happen. But yeah, she kisses Alan, and she's you know, trying to this this triangle thing with with the other Adam and Alan.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

This is I think the word of the season, why? And even if I hear an expression of the writers, I just don't think it's I I don't want to say I don't think it's a good enough answer because I feel like it's not my place to say that, but I just feel frustrated by these storylines because I I you know George just wrote it in such a way where he covers all of this why. That's all makes sense. But sometimes he leaves no room, he leaves he leaves no room for you to say why because I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

I feel like I feel like we're we're we're sounding like bitter, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Like we are. So maybe we're recording this a bit too early because now we're just here like reflecting on the season and I guess pointing out all our frustrations with it. But I mean, it's been three weeks. I feel sometimes when it's been three weeks, it's usually a good enough time to reflect. Maybe in three more weeks, my my my opinions will change, but for now, it's three weeks and I still feel the same.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Maybe the wound hasn't healed yet. But anyway, uh, and this is something like I've watched um I've watched every episode of my son. He has not read any books. Um, he kind of had the same feeling, he liked the episodes like seven and eight more than I did. I get that with non-book readers, because we're expecting we have this in our head of what's gonna happen, and we're expecting it, and it goes, okay. And there's some and there's some things that happen verbatim, yeah. And it's still like, okay, like Kristen Cole's death is like we didn't build that up either. Like, he was supposed to die with no flair. Like, we didn't want to honor him and this great battle to the death, like that he wanted songs to be written by, and he teeded up in the previous episode. I want songs to be written by, and there's this great line that's said in the book before he they kill him, and it wasn't said some little things like that. Like, yeah, why have him make why have him say the line and then not have one of the guys who's gonna kill him say a similar line to make it? I don't know, just because you think it's gonna be cheesy. Who cares? We want sometimes we want cheesy. Cheesy works, sometimes it works. So, I mean, again, uh, Kristen Coles dies in what episode five, I think. Uh, I forgot the uh six, episode six. He could have been done in the second episode.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Again, how many third because second was so perfect for me for like Renera taking the throne? So the third fourth would have been fun. We had him traverse the Riverlands for so long.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, and dragging these 20 guys with him to their death, and it's just like oh that could have been done in an email instead of having us see him in six episodes. I mean, I guess we could just go go down the line really quick because I do want to talk about other good things that happen, but I uh let's just get all this negativity out of our system and go.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Okay,

Aemond’s Harrenhal Spiral

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I mean I got some my positives out of the system out of my system. So if you want to go ahead with your with your positives or negatives, okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So worst moments. Um or I guess the story arc is Allison. She could have done a core lesson, not we don't have to see her. Um we we saw call this how many times? A couple times. Eamon's arc and her and hawk, that just an enough set. Even if it didn't happen to Damon in the second episode uh season, it still would have been like, well, what are we doing here? Yeah why are we taking this character that was so great, such a great villain, and having it become a shell of his own self?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I I feel you. Um I think this season, um Ryan Condel kind of wanted to, I don't know, I can't speak for him, but to me as a viewer, it seemed as though he wanted to show Viserys' kids at their weakest, at their like weakest, all of them. Because that's how we see all four of them, right? Uh exclude Daron. Um, you know, we see Helena at her most depressed, we see Aegon at his most um in his worst state, you know, he was kissing some guys' shoes and the guy's dirty shoe being you know unsupported. We saw Aemond at his, I guess, loneliest, and we see uh Reneera lose another child. So I understand that he kind of maybe wanted to have them all be in the same position, and then we see how they kind of wrestle themselves out of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

But for me, and I and I know that there's this Damon Eamon paradigm where they're kind of trying to have the two characters um reflect each other, right? But like how we were frustrated last season Damon's wasted, stretched storyline at Tyron Hall. If you, the writers, know that we disliked that, why go ahead and do the same thing for Eamund in season three? Even if it's to reflect that, it just felt very like poor Ewan Mitchell. He just yeah, and Ewan Mitchell, the actor, he just just felt very depressing for him, I think, to film that because he was just sitting there mooping around for all his time on set, you know, and he didn't have much to do except be depressed. And it's not was not fun for any of us involved, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And the highlight of your season is getting slapped by Aegon.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I mean, the that that's like what a highlight. That how depressing is that that you did All this all this work and Aegon coming in and slapping you was the highlight. Yeah, I think it was a misstep. I I know that Eamon goes there and he you know he does hook up with with um Alice, but I mean change it up a little bit. Maybe just do the one episode of him there because then we we need that arrogant, ruthless, calculating character back to make it more interesting. Like what's gonna happen now that Eamon leaves? Are we ever gonna see Harren Hall again? Like, is that it for Alice Rivers?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah, I don't know. No, we're gonna see more of her. I saw a quote from uh Ryan Connell, the showrunner, saying that there's gonna be more witchiness next season, and we don't have room for witchiness next season, so I don't know what's what how she's gonna be a part of like the end in the last you know few episodes that we get of the season, but or of the show. So I don't I don't know. I I love witchiness too, but uh it's not it's not a magic story, it's a it's a Targaryen story.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

You have to figure out how to add two episodes and have it attend episodes.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

You have to.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Uh

Rhaena And The Nettles Switch

SPEAKER_02 23:12

okay. My other story arc that was very frustrating was Raina. Um okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

You I think you feel more strongly about this than I do. I don't know why I don't feel so strongly about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

No, I I feel for her because one, the actress, is very good. We finally get to see her act, Bethany Antonia. Is that her name? Or is that the other one? Is that Bela? Am I getting them mixed up?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Phoebe Campbell, yeah, yeah. Phoebe Campbell is the saying.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So the other one is Bela. You drag this kid to the mud. She finally gets a dragon that she's been dying to get. You incorporate Nettle's character into her, give her the story arc, have her become an outcast, incidentally being a part of Jace's death, even though that's not her fault. Maybe it was her fault. Like, you don't take a wild dragon, you just sat on 20 minutes prior to a battle. You claim the dragon, and you go, Okay, let me go. It's like you learning to uh fly a plane and then go, you know what? I see those really menacing clouds. I'm gonna go straight through there and see how I do. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, that's a good example.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Having her exiled in the mountains, okay, and that great scene with her and Damon, her saying that you never done anything even for me as a father, they're really heart, heartbreaking. And then you get the standoff with all the dragons, and then she goes back to King's Landing as a prisoner and with no dragon, yeah. That was the point, unless there's a completely changed story arc that's gonna happen in season four, which I don't know how it's gonna happen, to redeem herself because I feel like, and what what's gonna be? Like, is she gonna go escape? And is sheep stealer gonna find her in King's Landing? And then she goes out. The one thing I don't want, and this is something about season four, I don't want her to be a part of the God's eye.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

That's gonna really Oh god, no, no, no, please no.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

So I'll leave that with Raina.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I don't know why I'm not as obsessed about this as so many other like book readers about the Raina Nettles switch. Personally, uh weirdly, I don't I just don't see a huge, huge problem with it. Just be I I've mentioned this in the past. I think that's including Nettles as she is completely purely from the book, it would have created some show problems that I don't think would have translated as well into the show. Having her, you know, in the book, she ends up being like with Damon and they they're together and he has this whole affair with her. And I don't think that people want to see that because the Damon that we love is the one that's so loyal to Rhinira. I don't know why they didn't make that the other way around as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah, if you would have had that story, it would have it would have added to Ranera's frustration and all the weight of the crown, and then she's now she can't trust Damon, and then she's gonna make irrational. You know, that whole thing that's gonna have her, you know, her unravel, like that would have been a big part of it. Like now I have to deal with this, but then you don't have that Phoebe Campbell, she's gone, because then you will never see her again. I get it, I get it, but I just think it could have added more weight to Renera's not good decision making. That's what I was trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Um at the end of the day, I guess I just don't really mind it that much. Yeah, even if we wouldn't have seen Raina and Swiss book thing, I think like that's fine too, but I just don't know how well Nesses would have translated on screen. So for me, it's fine. It just makes off people hate Raina. So, like I so what? You know, for me, I like personally, I'm so sorry I don't care about Raina that much. I know that I don't care, but she's not one of my favorites, so it's fine. Like, let people dislike her for her mistake. It's it creates tension, but for me, I think it's one of the few unnecessary dramas that I think is fine because if it was so true to the book, it would have been, I guess, just maybe caused uh opened up a can of worms, I guess, because of what they already did with you know the relationship with their viewers, uh, you know, making people love Damon and such. So I I just don't mind that whole Raina

The Show’s Failed “Mad Queen” Push

SPEAKER_00 27:24

thing. But um, I know we moved on from Renera, but I do kind of wander out about a little something as well about Raina because you uh Rhineera, because you did mention something where you said that where you said that sort of made Rhaenera more frustrated with Damon and possibly it would have also added to Renera being mad, like it would have given her more reason to feel betrayed, alone, and then possibly mad. And to that point, I kind of I understand what you what you mean because yes, it it feels more like okay, she's mad and she's validated and stuff. And if they made her actually crazy after all of that happened, it makes sense even more. You know, like her child died, and then her husband cheated on her, and the the you know, the the kingdom that she inherited that she's now in charge of is like in shambles. So if she went completely mad and like actually mad, it would have made sense. But for me, I think that the writers didn't know what to do, to be honest with her near here, because they seemed desperate to make her mad, but it didn't work. You know, they wanted her to they wanted us to see her as mad in this season. I remember it just stayed in my mind that there was a quote, I don't know who said it, I think it was Emma Darcy, who said that, oh, season three is gonna make you test your loyalty to Reneira and something like we're gonna she's gonna be pushed to her limits and we won't know if we're gonna like her anymore by the end of the season. I mean, no, that did not happen. We didn't see her mad enough that we're questioning our loyalty to her, but they could have gone that route very easily if they just switched some minor things in the season. And you mentioned this in our uh finale uh recap of season three, where you said, okay, for Helena, for example, in the Helena storyline, if they had Ranera forcibly make uh Helena lose her baby that she was pregnant with, people would dislike Rhenira. They that that would have been mad, that would have been crazy, and people it would have added to what they're trying to do. If they just did more, if Renera was crueler, you know, if she was actually cruel, but they just didn't do that. We want to see Ranera mad because she has every reason to be mad, but we don't see it, you know. So they want us to dislike her, but they're making us dislike her or testing our loyalties to her just by making her um a more frustrating lead in terms of seeing her do questions that way, I guess we would we can't root for someone that's doing these things. And but that's the point. It's not that it's like, oh, morally we can't root for someone, we can't root for someone because it just makes her less interesting. You know, her whole Masaria Damon thing makes her less interesting, that she's so vulnerable to that and and and isn't sure of herself. Why? Why even make her so strong and like and or like make her more vengeful and assertive? That's the button here. We've been waiting to see. And when we when we got that, you know, we saw her take the kingdom and it's worked, and then poof, it disappeared.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Even when even when she orders the death of the sept, and you're like, okay, he had it coming.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

It wasn't even like even when she made the speech, it was more of a what confusing.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

It wasn't even like a uh tyrannical speech. Uh, it was like, what are you doing? Like these people don't know what you're saying. Like, it's something like maybe she should have like been screaming at it or ordering executions left and right, uh, but that's not her character. She's been a pacifist for so long that you know you would think that the murder of her second kid would have drove her over the top, but it didn't. I I think the most frustrating is that once she has an incompetent small council and she's not good in making decisions, yeah. So you combine that and you get this chaos. If she had a strong small council and a hand of the king that was there that was giving her solid advice, who knew how to rule, it could have put her more at ease. But she had to do everything, she has no hand of the king. People are like, she's hiring people who are no qualifications to be in that small council. She's like, You want to do it, you want to do it, you want to do it? Like, she's opening the door. Hey, can you be the master of coin? I've never met you, but maybe we'll, you know, we'll put all the blame on you, we'll make you the scapegoat. You add that combination, and it's just kind of it's gonna what's gonna happen. It's chaos inside the building. There's so much happening outside that she has to deal with, she has to deal with Tumbleton and the rest of the realm, and now she can't even make a simple decision inside her, the red keep. And it also makes her boring TV because it kept going for so many episodes. Okay, well, we get it. That season three, uh, episode three. You I I I absolutely agree. That point of view of her, uh, following her, the music, seeing the symbolisms of the rat, the blood, everything was was great. And that's something that that's all we needed to see that she was in over her head, like it wasn't time, she wasn't prepared to actually rule when she actually got in. I have a couple more um things I wanted to say about not negative, it's just kind of like huh.

Dragonseeds Without Proper Payoffs

SPEAKER_02 32:45

It's the lack of um the dragon seeds throughout the season. There were the seeds were sprinkled here and there. You like what I did there? Um, the same problems apply to all Hugh and Adam. They kept showing them throughout the season here and there, but we're not without any significant storylines for us to actually care about. Like they were you have a one-minute scene here, a two-minute scene here. Uh, it's like with Hugh. You we're supposed to care about him and his wife and understand the desperation behind his choices, but we never get enough time to develop that relationship. Uh, with Adam, we get this whole setup about his journey and then the quest for love, but then again, like it's just not enough. Like, we don't have time uh for that, and then you have all uh we get to see him slapped around a bit and degraded, and but it wasn't enough for me, um, which was entertaining by the way, but I don't think that alone was enough for him to make this betrayal, like oh, I'm gonna betray these people because they slapped me around, um, or they denied me all this, you know. I mean, you could have been in the gutter, and now you do you know you have a dragon, right? If you're just patient, just be patient. You have this important role, then they will take care of you if you just wait. And I think that right there is kind of um so when he's betraying them in the last episode, you're like, okay, it's not like oh my god, I can't believe it. I can't believe Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't that it wasn't that.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

It feels more like, oh yeah, Team Blacks had it coming because who would trust these people? And it that's what's frustrating about it as well, because I I wish at least they'd shown a reason for them to be loyal that's more than just dragons and then show them betray team blacks. And for me, I don't know if you I don't think we talked about this, but I just kept saying, Oh, they had Hugh, um sorry, they had Alf betray them, but not Hugh. That was what I said, you know, what I thought at the end of it. I was like, oh, Hugh didn't make him betray Renera that much, you know. So he was just depressed and you know, he was just going off and doing whatever he wanted, but it wasn't a proper betrayal. And then now I just recently saw a quote from Ryan Connell said, no, that was a betrayal. He did betray them. He said something like he never he only ever acted out of self-interest. But at the same time, I wish they'd shown that if that was the case. If they if you want to show him as someone that's very um selfish from the very beginning and that it's purely out of self just make, I don't know. Okay, we don't see enough for us to for that to be clear to us. And as you said, we don't spend enough time with them, and we spend more time with you know, Alf being like the butt of the joke joking around. And Hugh, it's just like well, I felt he he didn't betray them, but Brian kind of saying, no, no, we didn't. We're trying to show that he's a selfish person, and now he has he lost something. But to me, it just didn't feel enough of a betrayal, as you said, to to warrant a reaction from us because I I just assumed they weren't going for a big betrayal from Hugh, you know. I I literally thought, oh, what are they gonna do next season with them? Like, probably is Hugh gonna stay on their side, is he gonna just be upset and then leave? And I don't know like what's you know, I I I just didn't have I was like, I don't know, it's like a lukewarm reaction to that. And I did barely thought about you because I thought about more. You know, I thought, oh, they're probably gonna hunt him down and because of what he did and that big show that he put on. So I don't know. For me, it just feels, you know, as you said, we don't get enough of them to the point where they're not they don't feel like fully fledged characters. But I wish if if the whole point was to show Ulf uh sorry, Hugh being selfish, I wish we saw more of that because all we see is just a man that's loving his wife, but we don't see him kind of not care about the blacks from the beginning, you know?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

I don't know. Um it's just uh I guess it's it's due to us not seeing them enough.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, and Ulf is not smart enough to convince him to betray the team team black.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Because we get the scene of of I don't know if he was on the dragon, but anyway. Um the other well, he's not a dragon seed, but Alan is another side character that I think he's the exception to this, because I think he at least got enough screen time to show to get his point across and explain his motivations. Um I under I understood what was driving Alan, and I I um and that was missing with with the dragon seas, I think, because we we get to see that it's a guy that he is gonna follow orders to the T. He's already saying I'm gonna I'm the heir. Like we we could see his what he wants, it's clear, and he's now he's in the small council, so we get to see

Helaena’s Tragedy Without A Turn

SPEAKER_02 37:45

him. Well, let's go to um the other character that was a I don't know, it was a toss-up for me because Helena. Helena's storyline is something that is kind of a mixed bag. Um, I love the performance by her, Fia Saban, fantastic RP to her character. I'll just say RP to her, not her, but their character. Um I think my biggest issue with the choices, the show choices for Helena, they don't adequately justify the ultimate end of the character. I think that we see a character who was depressed, yes, but not long enough. Because even after her the son of the death of her son, we don't see her depressed. After after Jaharis' death, we you know, she's we don't see that depression going, uh, which something they could have done in season two, like, oh, she's just depressed, she just lost her child.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Um, then season three comes along. She is the most tragic character, and she's the most innocent, in our opinion. We've said that. And there's a lot of potential there, is a lot of intrigue with her visions. Um, it was nice to see a vision from her. We needed something more for her to say, okay, I'm done with this life.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, I agree. I mean, Haney's death is, I think, uh, or the way that they adapted it is I I hate that it's something that I strongly dislike, and is I would consider it so sorry to say it's like a stain on the season. Um, just because as George said, they kind of make her die for no real reason. Um, we already mentioned that they could have given her, you know, i other ways where they could have given her reasons to to die and push her even more, make it even sadder and worse, but you know, like by doing something to her baby that's pregnant that she's pregnant with, um, which would feed into what they're doing as well, testing Ardorinera. So I don't know why they didn't go down that route. Um, and as you said, why not just make her incredibly depressed? Why? Like it's maybe it's not fun for Sophia Sapin, the actress, to you know, do that, but I see no other reason as to why they didn't just make Helena incredibly depressed after blooded and cheese because you know she lost she lost a kid, and she if they if they made her choose, it would have been even worse if it was, as you said, like the book. So this is another situation where we can't help but wonder why. And she was only ever depressed when Alicent left her. Before Alicent leaves her in the season, she was fine, and they never showed Helena before that to be codependent and so like her have her sanity reliance on Alicent. It was never that. So what pushed her? Nothing. You know, nothing pushed her. We just see her get these visions of a life that she could have wanted and her leaving leaving to go there. It's valid, and that's okay. I understand. Renee, uh sorry, Helena has had enough of this life and wants you know her dream of living in a farm with chickens and her kids, fine valid, okay. But we don't see a turning point that makes her go, you know, like I I I that's it, I want out and I want this, and I'm so depressed. Like it's just it comes out of nowhere with Alison's departure, even though there is no correlation or relation between Helena's sanity and Alison's presence. Alison's was never really that present for them as a mom. So why suddenly her her disappearance or her leaving Helena is that uh I guess detrimental to Helena's mental health? Why uh there was nothing that that established that earlier on. So it just feels like another why. The first part is all about um like me nitpicking at the Renero stuff with the Missaria and everything, but the second part is Helena's death because it's supposed to be devastating, but it isn't as devastating as it should be.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

But why why not have her have visions throughout season three of being depressed, like dark visions, something that she couldn't escape, like maybe she was having visions all night in her dreams that she couldn't like it was persistent, and maybe that's something that drove her to to jump. That could have worked as well. Okay, we're gonna get to some positives really soon.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Okay. Um I'm done with my positives, so you're positives. That's right.

Unnecessary SA Scenes

SPEAKER_02 42:18

The other the other thing that I'm just so tired of, and we've talked about this, and we were frustrated because we had women writers and women directors, is the all the essay that we keep getting, unnecessary scenes of women getting hurt and and all this violence. And just like we get it, this is a violent world, but if it feels like you're manufacturing it, it it's not part of the story, it's not or sounds stupid to say organic violence. What was it last season with um no no no this season with Allison and the Master of Coin where he's like, Oh, I'm gonna show you, and all of a sudden he wants to get on top of her. Like that just you're just making that up now. You know what I mean? Like, why why even have a scene like that? Those kind of scenes are hopefully are done, and we have to focus on you know what's at hand here. But um, I I know you have to say about that because we we've talked about that before.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, um, it's incredibly unnecessary, and it's just sound like a broken record, but why? Why, why, why? And I I don't mean to laugh, but because it's really not a funny situation, especially this. But um I was just laughing at myself. My first thought when you said that was, oh yeah, we have we really don't have time next season for any of that. But then I thought, no, you know what? We didn't even have time this season for it, and somehow they managed to squeeze a couple of scenes in. Like there's no need or time for it at all. And I just it serves no no purpose whatsoever to see our female characters being abused on screen. It serves no narrative purposes. There's the it's it's just in the incredibility. Incredibly unnecessary. And again, my frustration stems from why sometimes it feels like they're not kind of listening to the criticism that a lot of fans receive. And it's constructive criticism because a lot of people were frustrated with seeing all of these scenes in Game of Thrones and we didn't want to see it. And I understand that sometimes they want to shock us and do things that we might not like on the surface, which is killing off a character. You know, no one really likes that Ned Stark died, for example. But we we don't have a problem with in the long run because it's we understand the narrative purpose, it serves. It's a major plot event, yada yada yada. But this is something that the show really hasn't it has it's a major criticism of Game of Thrones. We don't, we never need it.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

You're adding the scene just to add an uh of you know, you want to be what what's the word? Edgy. Like you're gonna put this we're gonna be edgy, we're gonna put the scene in, like, okay. We're gonna be dark. I don't see I don't see anybody go, oh yeah, that was a great scene. No,

Worst Book Changes And Cringe Moments

SPEAKER_02 44:57

no. Um okay, let me let me I'm gonna um I really want to get to some positives and then we're gonna rank the episodes and rank our favorite moments, but I just want to just say that I think we could do another episode in the future about just fire and blood the novel and talk really dive deep into like the changes. Um so here is um my least favorite changes, and this is something that I I'm sure there's more. And if you are listening and you're like, how come they didn't mention this? Please send us a message on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah, I have one that's I I have a couple actually, like some more yeah, because I know that someone's gonna mention this. Uh it's it's in my worst moments lists.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Um, I was saying if you do have anything, just send us a message. Uh Instagram dancing with underscore dragons.

unknown 45:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Throwing a plug in there. But go ahead, we'll give us some. Maybe we have the same.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Okay, so a major one that I'm sure it should be on your list than everyone else's is the very weird and unnecessary scene between Anna Synth and Amon. That's vision.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Yes. And it's funny because the scene, the real scene of him kissing her, I thought was really out of pocket, but at least the performance of Olivia Cook made it okay because she's like, What is happening here? She was us, yeah, she's the audience.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah, she was us.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Like, well, what what's what are you doing? You know, but yeah, like, do we need to see Olivia Cook on top of Amen? No, no, definitely not I'll say I'll I'll say a couple of mine. Um the small council meetings, I just didn't like because if I I liked the first couple ones, but then after a while I felt like okay, we're seeing the same scene over and over again of incompetence. Uh the prince that was promised speech or that moment was very cringe. I don't know why they had to add that.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Um any any other worst moments that you thought from the oh the the the Bela most Bela scenes, I'd say poor Baila, but um the Bayla Love Triangle, I hated another unnecessary drama creator for the for the show, and also the the tension between Bela and Rheneira. It was a very, very, very nonsensical scene in the finale. That that's you know, Bela calling Rhenira out and and Rhenira what what you know I just I can't even like did you just hear me? I'm so confused by that scene. It made no sense whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

And we didn't even get a scene of Baylor and and Rhenira, and Baylor trying to just apologize or anything, or justify like, look, Jace. Yeah, I I'm I'm so sorry, Jace was crazy, and he he convinced me, and I should have known, you know, something like that kind of stuff to um not justify her locking her up, but just say this is what happened. He was crazy, he wanted he didn't want you to get hurt. So, yeah, and then we get that scene of where all this stuff is happening, and all of a sudden Baylor is is stepping up to her like she wants to fight. Like, we need to do a better job. We need to next time we need to rewatch the whole season because I know I'm forgetting a lot of stuff. I was trying to write everything down from memory, and I kind of looked at my notes from the other episodes and it's kind of like, you know what? My dig in this, do I really want to do this? Because I feel like a downer, like a devi downer.

Best Changes And Season Highlights

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Uh, but anyway, um, I'm gonna say some of the best changes uh from the book to the show. I think Gwen Hightower's expanded role. I really like that because at first I'm like, why are they what are they doing? This Gwane does die in the the capturing of King's Landing with Renera, he's dead in that first day, and Aegon's storyline. And I think it not only is one of the best changes from the book, but it's one of my favorites of the whole season. I think he kind of saves the season in a weird way because this character was so so hated, and we go from him being hated to feeling the sympathy, he's he's a broken king, he doesn't know where to go, he's accepting his death, he's accepting his fate, and all of a sudden he's reborn and resurrected, and just the performances by him, uh Tom Glencarney, make episode seven and eight much better. Because that him going to Heron Hall, slapping amen and saying I'm alive is so good, so satisfying. Him having a purpose, sunfire coming back. It's all that's that's something that paid off. Because in the beginning, you're like, okay, what are we doing with him and Laris? What what's going on here? Are we just gonna follow these guys and it's just gonna be boring? And then that's something that could have been done with a lot more characters, an actual payoff.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yeah, I I I forgot about Aegon. That's um one of the few payoffs I got that season, you're right, and it was well done. It was well done.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah, we have moments you have uh Rainier becoming queen or getting to that point. Bring Aegon. Um that's that's great. The battle of the gulla, I've mentioned it in my opening statement. Uh that both battles are done so well. The Winter Wolves, we don't get as much, but I cherish every second of their uh uh screen time. We get Black Alley, hopefully um her role expands in the in season four. Uh are we gonna have same favorite performances?

SPEAKER_00 50:46

I think so. Yes, I think so. Emma Darcy.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Who plays uh Orman?

SPEAKER_00 50:50

I forgot his name is uh James Norton.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Yes, it's great. Uh Tommy Flanagan, Fia Say. I mean, they're all good. Even Crispy Cole. Um, he he goes out, but at least he's a great actor. I mean, they all do great. Uh okay, why don't we just rank our uh the episodes?

Ranking Episodes And Final Scores

SPEAKER_02 51:09

You want to rank all eight or just give us your top three? Top three, and then uh your I guess what's who was your least favorite?

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Um honestly uh four, five sorry, four, six, and seven are a bit of a blur to me. I remember that seven was the only one where immediately after recording, after watching the episode, I just got very annoyed. Like I think that was the episode where I I just said, I'm annoyed, I'm annoyed, I'm annoyed. And I don't know why it annoyed me um so much, but keeping in mind that seven wasn't one where I just felt so frustrated.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yeah, I think uh episode four was my least favorite because you come off such a high from episode three. The episode three to episode four drop off is pretty substantial. And I'm like, what? So I have um four, six, and five are my least favorite.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

My top three um uh are episodes one, three, and two being my favorites. To no surprise. To no surprise.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Oh so I'm sorry, so you went three, two, one? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

No, um, so my favorite is episode two, and second place is episode three, and then first place is episode third place is episode one.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Okay, I have kind of the same. My favorite one is Queen's Landing, which is episode two, and then I have the battle the go as number two, and then episode three is three, and then the finale is four. Number four, and then uh the fifth one is episode seven. And I think when you add it all up of all our scores, it's gonna be like an close to an eight or like seven point whatever, which is still really good, which is crazy because we spent eighty percent of this episode complaining complaining about it. It's like uh this we're like parents, and the book is our child, and we're like we're not upset, we're just a little disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Do your do your parents ever say that to you? I'm sure no, I'm sure not because you're perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

No, no, no. Okay. I don't know, honestly, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Straight A student in school.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Kinda.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Yeah, I I could tell.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Kinda, but then I had a year where I wasn't as um good, and my mom calls this my rebellious year.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Well, maybe one day you'll give us uh an explanation on that.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

We'll see, we'll see. There's not as exciting as it sounds being a rabbit one year, like a good student, like her like Hermione, my idol, when I was a kid. It's not it's there's not an exciting story behind that.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

You got a B one time, those are being rebellious.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Okay, I think we're gonna stop there and um take a break from season three of House of the Dragon.

What’s Next, Play Talk, Listener Question

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Um, I'm excited to announce that we're gonna have some guests joining us in the future. I don't wanna jinx it and say the name of the guests in talks with them. Uh obviously, when we get official word, I will put that on our Instagram. But I wanted to ask you, because I know that you're in the UK at the moment, were you planning on seeing or is there a way to see the Mad King play? I see the people on TikTok who have have seen it are really, really enjoyed it and are like kind of blown away by it.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

I'd love to, but um last time I checked, which I mean wasn't that late, you know, it wasn't too late in the game. Yeah, I I if I'm not mistaken, it's completely sold out. I couldn't find uh tickets, and I just hope that they kind of bring it to the West End because I think if I'm not mistaken, the first couple of shows got cancelled due to some technical difficulties. Apparently, the set is quite elaborate. Um, so I hope that with all the good reviews they're getting that they're able to uh first of all publish the script because I think it'll be very interesting to dive into that and bring it to the West End or to Broadway, and hopefully I'll come to the US to get to see it. I know that or just get to stay in London.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Yeah, for those who don't know, it's a the play is about a decade before Game of Thrones the show. Yeah, so it's just doing the Robert's Rebellion, yeah, close to four hours, which is crazy. Um, the final of the Man King, uh, it talks about the legendary turning at Heron Hall and all the events leading to Robert's Rebellion, which is really cool. I know George was there in the premiere, and he said, I think what was reported is that he was uh joining the crowd in the standing ovation.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Aww. Happy for him.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

So yeah, let's hope that some way, somehow, me and Tony are both able to see the play, um, and that the eventual A Gon's Conquest movie um shapes up to be a very interesting and cool project. We're obviously going to update you the news on that as we as we get the news. And of course, let's hope that the upcoming seasons of House of the Dragon and Knights of Seven Kingdoms are fantastic. Though we complained a lot in this episode, we you know it comes from a place of love. And we do hope that um well we are excited for the future and hope that um they deliver. And that's basically it from us on House of the Dragons season three.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

It's been I I'm I'm sorry to interrupt the outro, but I don't I don't want to forget, I just saw this on this the edge of my screen is the question we got from Caden Underscore Crip, and I don't want to forget his question again. Um he says, in my opinion, the season was good, but how can they finish the story in one season or left? Gonna feel like late GLT. I hope uh I agree with your worry. I don't think we'll get GLT season eight level of cringiness and and you know I mean like ineptitude. I'm hoping, I'm hoping not that we don't. But yeah, I there's so much stuff to to talk about. And I think we will do an actual season four prediction. We wanted to do this now, but I think we we kind of went over our time, I think. Uh but I want to do maybe probably by before maybe next year we'll do a season four with spoilers about what we think is gonna happen and what they're gonna take out. So, okay. Sorry about we could you can continue shooting the outro.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Okay, um, thank you for the question, Caden. We um I I don't know about Tony, I kind of feel similar to you. I think that there's a lot to cover, but we'll we'll just have to wait and see. But for now, that's it from us on um House of the Dragons season three. Um, as Tony teased, we're definitely going to be having some fun, exciting episodes after a bit of a brief break. And we hope you tune in because they're gonna be very exciting. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at dancing with underscore dragons, and be sure to add, listen, and download our episodes on your preferred listening platforms and give us a rating in your view or a comment as well if you get the chat. So we'd really appreciate it. Thank you guys so much for listening to Dancing with Dragons and following along for House for the Dragons season three. See you guys very soon.