"The Treasons at Tumbleton" HOTD S3 | EP8

For the 93rd episode of the podcast, we close out our House of the Dragon season 3 coverage by unpacking how Aegon’s return reshapes the war and pushes Rhaenyra toward choices that feel more like tyranny than rule. We break down the biggest scenes from “The Treasons at Tumbleton,” from Helena’s final turn to the disaster at Tumbleton and what it signals for season 4.

Transcript

Cold Open And Rising Tension

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is the house of the seven. No arms are to cross its threshold. The people of King's Landing gather, seeking to know who is ordained to lead them. You will give them the answer by anointing me for all to see.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

I have already told you that such is impossible. And now, after Egon and his dragon have been resurrected, there could be no clearer sign of whom the gods have chosen to rule. Princess.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

I am queen. The old man forgets.

Finale Setup And First Reactions

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I'm Minua, and as always, I'm joined today by my co-host Tony. We've been breaking down every episode of season three of House of the Dragon week by week, and after eight fiery, maybe long weeks, we finally made it to House of the Dragon season three's finale. Honestly, it feels a bit surreal. We've been waiting for the season for forever and it just flew by. Somehow it's already over, but we're here today discussing the finale, the treasons at Templeton, written by Shoran or Ryan Condit alongside Simon McKell and directed by Andre Perek. I hope I'm pronouncing that wrong. The official synopsis three. Shifting alliances irrevocably shape the war as their nearest forces converged around Templeton and both sides fight to gain the upper hand. There's a lot to unpack and plenty to discuss. Right after I think you watched the episode, Tony, you sent me a message saying we need some time before we record because there's a lot to cover here and I I felt the same. I have a ton of notes, but before we get into like the recap and all of what we've written and analyzed about the episode, I have to ask, how are you feeling after that finale?

SPEAKER_05 2:00

I'm feeling um um, I guess. I guess after the disappointment of the penultimate episode, I I felt like I was on edge, and I was really, really, really like hoping that the finale would rectify episode seven, and at times, you know, we get some great scenes and we get some, how should I say, perplexing storylines that finish or what were not even closed. Uh, we got some big changes from the novel, but again, I think we've been saying for a while now that we should not focus on the adaptation or what the changes are are being done because to think about it, it's completely different now. I don't know what's gonna happen in season four. They only have eight episodes left, and now I'm really afraid of them basically condensing all the events that are supposed to happen and the one that I really want to happen with the North.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah. Uh really that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_05 3:08

I saw somebody say, uh, the hour of the wolf, you mean like the five minutes of the wolf? That's that's what I'm really afraid of, and I think that's what's gonna happen because now you have all these different storylines that are have not even have been set up, and now we're waiting for the final season to have some closure or to tie them up in a bow. I don't want to keep complaining about eight episodes, but that's what's gonna happen when you have eight episodes and you have all these major events. Maybe they're just gonna condense events uh because we're there's supposed to be another battle of Tumbleton. I don't think that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, and Tumbleton's in ruins at this point. I don't know if they're gonna have another battle.

SPEAKER_05 3:49

I mean, Tumbleton happens, there's two of them, you know, and it's a complete different thing because Tumbleton wasn't occupied by the Greens. The Greens were outside the gates, they come in, the wolves are there, the winter wolves. We don't see Darren Rye uh flying to Sarion, which does happen in the battle. Uh in the first battle. So I I we're gonna scratch that battle in the second season in season four. The only plot change that I kind of do want to see now is Aegon and Aemon. See what the changes is gonna be made for that because Aamon and and you know they he has a big thing coming up. Overall, I this wasn't a bad episode. I mean, um, I think uh at times was disappointing, but the battle at the end was I thought was better than the battle of the gullet because it was it had more components to it. Tommy Flanagan as Roderick was just amazing. He's amazing, and it's it's a bummer that we only get a few minutes of him. I think like five minutes of screen time. But I mean, he just he did a great job. And again, we see Black Alley in action uh for a second, and we still don't know who she is. If you're a non-book reaper, you're like, who is this you know, warrior queen here? It's gonna take another watch for me to actually have a real rating and score because I have a rating in mind, but I want to like sit down and actually dissect every scene. Our plans is to do an actual season three recap as our following episode for the podcast, and I and I think that's gonna be more in depth and more of our thoughts overall of the pros and cons of what they what they did with the material, what they didn't do with the material, the things that they set up in season two and season three that wasn't even anyway. So that's my overall thoughts. I mean, there were some scenes that I'll just say that the scene of uh the episode is again Aegon. Yeah, their performance is is an amazing, and then when we get to that point uh of the show, um I want to do share the audio because we have to. I mean, it's just brilliant, brilliant acting. Uh, but anyway, uh, where do you

The Burning Tapestry Opening Clue

SPEAKER_05 6:01

want to start? Actually, um uh let's talk about the tapestry opening scene because somebody pointed this out and I did not even notice. And I had to go back and watch like five intros of the show of the last five episodes just to make sure. By the end of the theme song, the tapestry is on fire. The TikTok that I saw was that it feels like it's intentional because Helena is dead and she's the one that was weaving the tapestry.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I watched the episode for the first time and just took it all in without, you know. That was one of the few episodes where I didn't like write down notes as I was watching just because I knew it's the finale, I'd have to rewatch it anyways, and that's when I'd do the notes. Um, so I was locked in and then I saw people say that, but then when I went to go re-watch the episode, I didn't notice it burning. So I don't know. It was did I did I just miss it?

SPEAKER_05 6:53

Yeah, you missed it. It's burning. It starts burning, it starts burning when they show the Kristen Cole.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Okay, and then in the past episodes it hasn't, it's like less.

SPEAKER_05 7:04

No.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:05

So I mean you can see like the embers on the top of the screen. No, you see embers, but you never see like flames.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

And you see smoke and embers. But this one you can see actually fire and uh flames coming out. And I think uh what's interesting is gonna be what's gonna happen for the opening of season four. Will it be different?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

That's what I was gonna say. I'm sure it's gonna be different than that.

SPEAKER_05 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Okay, so you gave your overall thoughts on the episode. For the most part, I agree with you. Um, I think that like the best scene, or I guess the most memorable one, was Aegon's moment, which was like funny because the show edition and it's a like a humorous moment as well. But I don't want to get ahead of myself. I think that's for the most part I agree with you, and I'm ready to like go into the episode scene by scene and like dissect every moment um one by one. So let's just start at the beginning.

Aegon’s Return Shakes Rhaenyra

SPEAKER_00 7:56

The episode begins with Reneira finding out that Aegon was alive, word of his return has spread, and people are taking it to um have like a religious second meaning that Aegon and yeah, Aegon and his dragon were magically, you know, resurrected or divinely resurrected. Um, because he is who's meant to rule, and that's what the people are saying, and they're believing it and supporting that message because well, mostly because a lot of them are also of the faith of the seven, and Anira isn't really, you know. So so yeah, that kind of sets off Reneera having a panic attack because when she goes and talks to Damon about it, we can see the panic kind of set in for her. That what if that's kind of true? We can see her kind of start to doubt it, and it's completely normal because she says something, and at that point she's wondering that was it all worth it? Is this real? Was Viser what Viserys told me true? Um, and that I think is just again the panic and the grief that she's been experiencing coming out and and being very prevalent and on her face. Um and also, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:03

No, I I was gonna say maybe you're gonna disagree, but I just her I I wish they gave Renera a different emotion other than crying, other than I'd rather have her come in there with rage and anger and being pissed because we have seen her already cry in in the whole season. I wanted something to have like uh have her some backbone, be like, okay, he's resurrected. What do we do now? Let's go. You need to do this, we need to do that. Have her be strong and and go and pissed. And in that moment, she would have been like, Bring me Masaria right now. And I want her head, you know. How how do you not know this information? How are you supposed to be the mistress of whispers and not know this? Yeah, and I wanted her to be as stoic, not stoic, but um the way cold, the way she was when she saw Helena. When she she realized that Helena felt uh jumped to her death, she had no emotion whatsoever. Blank stare. I think cold.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

It was like pre and post Damon's words to her. Like Damon Damon's speech to her was the gave her the push, I think, that she needed to go from being emotional to um, I guess, being that colder that you see with her. Personally, I don't mind her crying.

SPEAKER_05 10:18

No, but how many times did Damon give her?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

I know it's just like how soon.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

It should have been um we should have gotten the Renera at the end after her son's death. Yeah, that should have been the cold Renera throughout the season of no, we're gonna be uh this is my way or the highway. That's it. Like she's playing too nice and uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

This this whole um storyline and Rhenira in it and her attitude, this all should have happened, honestly. Like I don't know, we could we can sit here and say should have, could have, I wished that this happened. But I think that this should have also happened in like in prior episodes because now looking back, it kind of feels like after Jace's death until now it's been mostly wasted time. Like you can say the episode after her coronation, like her going on the Iron Throne, was okay, like a transition episode. But then after that, this should have been, I guess, I think what came immediately after because it just feels I don't know. I know that it's Aegon needing time to like power up, I guess, in return, but just feels she spent so long, as you said, like in season two, like on the fence, not being um assertive, and then why is she the same thing now? Always needing one for four episodes.

SPEAKER_05 11:36

Yeah, always needing the affirmation. Am I the chosen one? Am I really the like no? You were you s you stood there in the throne room as all those lords came and your father said you are the heir. That's it. You don't need to have. I'm not gonna say yet because I'm still can't believe they brought that back when she makes her speech. We'll talk about that. But like she she needs that that um calm, the affirmation all the time of is it worth it? Like you said, but also she's had moments of being cold, dribs and drabs when she's with Allison. She's like, No, you're doing this or else. You know, you're gonna have to kill your son if you want to come back, if you want your daughter to live. And Damon again giving her the pep talk, like, this is your right, you need to do, you can't be doing what your father did. You need to, this is war, essentially. And then she kind of snaps out of it and says, Okay, you and starts talking in Valerian. You're gonna do this, you're gonna do that, you're gonna march into Tumbleton. And my son and I just start laughing because Matt Smith plays it beautifully, because you could see his face being serious, and then like you could see a smirk ever so slightly of uh he was and then when she tells him what to do, and then he goes, Oh, finally, and he is like a kid who woke up and he went down in Christmas morning and saw the presents under the tree.

Baela’s Confrontation And Corlys Fallout

SPEAKER_05 13:02

Finally, I get to kill.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

So we move on from that moment to one that I found incredibly, incredibly weird, which is the brief scene that Renera had with Bela. It was weird, I think, is and strange are the only words that I can use to describe that scene in particular, just because I think that they kind of forgot who Bela is, weirdly enough. Why is Bela suddenly so passionate about Corless when he never cared about? I don't even think the two ever shared a line of dialogue together. Why is she so worried about it when she knows that's she knows that Corless left, you know, for her, like on his own. And you know, it's it doesn't make any sense what she's telling, like it's your fault. It's not how is it her fault? I mean, she has the nerve to blame Rhenira for Corless leaving when Rhenira could have easily, easily blamed her for Jace's death.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

And then she goes on to say, Oh, but yeah, and we were only repeated in anger, and you treat us so badly. They're in the midst of a war. What do you like? What do you want, Bela? And I I feel like I almost can't be mad at Baila just because I feel like the character we saw wasn't the real Bela. It's not the Bela that we've seen in previous episodes. I think that the normal Bela would be very pro-Reneira and would never talk to her this way. And she was blaming Rhenira for Reyna, and it it just doesn't make any sense. I felt like it was a scene written by someone that doesn't know these characters and doesn't hasn't seen the show. Or that's how it threats me.

SPEAKER_05 14:38

Or Bayla is listening to Adam. Adam is talking to her. Oh, we gotta do this. And but but no, I mean which was weird about the scene is that Baylor calls her out and it's saying some truth. Like she's Ranera is using people as tools. Uh, the only reason why she should. She's yeah, I mean, she's the only reason why I'm still around is I have a dragon. I thought it was an odd scene to put in there because her plan, okay. I need to go and rescue my grandsire. Okay. Explain. I wish Ranera would have just sat down in one of those chairs. Okay, Baylor, please explain how. How are you gonna go to Tumbleton and rescue your grandsire in the middle of all this chaos? Yeah, you're gonna just fly your dragon into the city and just call out his name, and he's gonna jump into Moondancer and you guys leave. Like you she basically saved her life again because Moondancer goes out there, she probably is gonna get killed by Silverwing, because Silverwing is much bigger, much more experienced than Moondancer. That scene was unnecessary, in my opinion. So and um the way she was talking about Corlus. I love how we go back to Alan when we see him responds to uh the driftmark soldiers coming into King's Landing because they're saying we need to rescue him. And he says, Lord Corlus knew of the risk of his adventures, he will want us to appraise the Valerian honor so greater than his life. So that that's that was the reply to the guys, and they're like, Who the heck are you? And he goes, Well, I'm his, you know, I'm the guy that's coming up next, you know. I'm the you know, I'm the heir to the Lord of the tide, or you know, the the seed of the trick mark, which I is kind of presumptuous of him. But I think after don't know the guy's name, the the actor, I really enjoyed his performance this season. Because he's like been one of those soldiers who team black all the way. He is his his role is I'm faithful to the queen, even though I'll I'll be blind, I'll be blindly faithful to her. And the same he has a conversation with Alan. He said, Nope, I'm staying here, I need to do this, and then he comic kind of calls him out. And I think he will be rewarded because he does something later on when we'll talk about with the High Septon. Uh so that that was the answer that that I kind of enjoyed when I was thinking about Bela. But anyway, um, and then to throw in Raina in there, you you broke Reina. Raina had the easiest job. She she had the two kids. You go in on a boat, you go to Pentos, and you live your life in luxury, and all you have to do is maybe they're bridy kids and she didn't want to take care of them or something. And she goes out and she decides that you know what, I don't have a dragon, I need to go out into these mountains and claim a dragon and then eventually do this and what happens.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

I want to say just about the Allen thing. Um, it was definitely, I think, like a power move by him to establish himself because once he kind of like puts the word out there that oh, Corless Valerian has a son and he's taking over, he's the named heir. And if he kind of um I guess builds that good reputation with the public and also with Rhineera, it is going to get him legitimized. So it's definitely why he kind of exposed his identity and wore it very proudly, and it's also why he's also like very loyal to Renera because he wants to be legitimized, he wants that life. So um, yeah, I just wanted to say that I think it was definitely intentional. He has a weird scene with Adam as well later on, um, where they have like differing attitudes to current events happening, you know, like to what's going on in the past couple of episodes. Yeah, yeah, I just I mentioned.

SPEAKER_05 18:25

Yeah, because he says that um Bayla has been confined to her court or to the keep.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

You know, he's now, you know, since they're all star cross lovers, you know, they have to oh please this love triangle that's I hate that I predicted correctly. Um but yeah, it just makes me wonder what they're gonna do with these characters.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

No, but I I think Adam's more um infatuated because Alan's like, okay, whatever, I gotta go do my duty. Like he heard the words confined to the keep and he didn't do anything. If it would have been like, oh, let's go, we gotta get her, that would have been really bad. Uh well, let's keep with Ronera. Uh we're gonna just discuss all of Ranera's uh scenes

Helena’s Breakdown And A Brutal End

SPEAKER_05 19:06

here. Uh let's talk about her learning that Helena is not eating, it's not good for the child, and we get this uncomfortable conversation.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

You cannot think I would harm you. Do you think life is nothing more than not being dead? Our father would hate you for this.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

And yet he did nothing to prevent it. I strove to honor his philosophy until I saw that it would be the round undoing.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

There's a beetle that emerges on the Cosp of Summer and has lots of colours. Blue, gold, purple. It looks like a turtle. Have you ever noticed? You can only find it in King's Landing. Well, when the summer returns you have to You don't care about it. You're pretending all the things you care about.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Or you will force my hand.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Okay, so that brings us to one of the I guess I think two or three hellena scenes in this episode. And I don't want to get to the the end now, obviously, so I'll just focus on that. And what I will say though is maybe a bit of an unpopular opinion. Um because I think that that scene was also a bit weird to me, the same way that the Bayless scene was. I think that we see also a different version of Helene in this episode, or in this scene specifically, because she uh why wouldn't she say that uh Viserys would hate her? That's not not the truth. Viserys loved her more than anybody else.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

She was his favorite kid. It's not an accurate seeing. And at the same time, she he would have hated them all, all of the Greens, for what they did in season one, which is the crowning of Aegon. That's what he would have hated and stood against more than anything Renera ever did. He didn't even hate Renera for, you know, having illegitimate children, but he would hate them and hate their guts for what they did to her. So it just felt like a weird moment. And I think that it's also not great, I guess, that she attacks Renera on that point, saying, You're ugly, everything that you love is ugly, because Renera is, funnily enough, the most loving character in House of the Dragon. You know, she what she cares about most isn't the Iron Throne. It's her kids. I think, you know, like that's what she ha has cared about for most of her life. And I Understand that what they're trying to do is they're trying to show that what Helena is calling ugly is Ranira's sudden um I guess ambition or focus on like how the throne is corrupting her. I think that's what the showrunner said. But and that that greed, I guess, or that want is corrupting her and making her like uglier, making her desires uglier rather than what was before. But I just don't think that it's great because she attacks Renera, but like as a prisoner, Renere Renera treated her many times better than her own family did. Because you have Aegon, who you know would not treat her the best, and was a horrible, horrible person. And you have her mom who was very like they didn't make their childhood very easy. And yet she was able to forgive Alison so quickly, but her sister, who did nothing to harm her, she calls her ugly and attacks her, and so it felt like such a weird scene to me. And of course, that scene ends with um kind of Rhenira force feeding, uh telling the guards to force feed her. And it's seen as a very cruel thing. And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see it as cruel because it's better for Ronera if Helena just doesn't eat and dies. You know, if she just let that happen and say, oh, you know, that that that just happened, she didn't eat and she died, it wouldn't the blame wouldn't have been on her at all. Well, she doesn't it shouldn't even be in towards then because it was Helena's own decision, but it would have just been like maybe she would have not taken care of her. But Helena kept uh sorry, Ronera kept Helena alive, you know, like she was doing that for her, for Viserys probably and for Alison. It's like like she she kept her sister alive. Why is that a bad thing? There's no IV drips in Westeros. I think it just feels like such a weird scene. Why do we have these weird scenes?

SPEAKER_05 23:49

The reason why it looks torturous and it looks awful is because it's Helena and she's a sweet little angel and we don't want any any harm to do with her. And I think her alive. I know. Uh and also I think there was a double meaning when she said you're pretending, you're pretending to show interest in this beetle that I just mentioned, which has a deeper meaning, and I need to look into it. Uh, also you're you're a pretender of the of the throne. I think that was a kind of a uh a way to say you're pretending. Um uh we should just go into her ending. I she does have a moment in the Godswood. Is she in the Godswood? And she comes back. Okay, so and then she sees Masaria, which was I mean, this is what happens when you don't have uh legit guards because for not one second they would have allowed Masaria to go up to Helena and speak. But like they would have just slapped her around or do something, like you're not saying any word, you go straight to where you need to go to. You know what I'm saying? But here's the odd thing that I see people saying is like, why is this woman who adored her children who was so disgusted at her mother when Alison wanted to do plan B for her? This is my child, you're not gonna take her away from me. Why would she jump to her death and ultimately kill her own child? And I think that's an issue with the show. Yeah, because it in in the well, now that she's she's done, she's dead, uh, she did a tom in. You know, after after the the blood and cheese, she went into a deep depression. This was something that she we never saw her, we never heard of her until she actually jumped off, and it was actually a different uh version of why she jumped. It's because she heard something about oh, Masaria told her that Maylor, her youngest, was killed, or his head was chopped off when he was trying to escape, and that kind of pushed her over the edge. So there's a lot of different story arcs that are not um are not making sense because they didn't put time into it. Was this a vision? We see the tapestry, we see herself falling, and we also see like is that tears coming out of her eyes that she's crying, right? In the tapestry. So we didn't get enough to go, well, yeah, I understand why she threw herself. You know what I mean? Like that there's nothing. It's not enough for her to do it. If they'd done it, if they would have done done it as the book, I guess, and show her in this deep depression that she wasn't eating, she was just wasting away, and then her Jahara was killed, you know what I mean, escaping, because we don't know where where's Jahara, yeah. We don't know. Like these kids are like, we don't know where the kids are. Finally, Joffrey showed up and he still didn't say a word. You know, we saw him for two episodes in bed sleeping, and then he just pops up.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

As I was like writing my notes, I like guess I kind of figured out or I understood what the showrunners were going for. They're trying to show us that Helena is, you know, she always felt herself as a prisoner, she's depressed, she doesn't like being in this world. And when she sees the horse in in like the courtyard thing uh of the keep, she I guess is reminded that uh there is uh, I guess, her actual dream waiting for her on like the other side of the veil or something, you know, as they say. Like it's it's it does exist somewhere in some other realm, and that's what she hoped to um you know uh go go towards, and that's why she she you know eventually like took her own life. So I understand that that even, for example, like Aegon being alive, that does nothing for her because she knows that that's still not her ideal life, and she wants what she wants, and she knows that that's like within her grasp, and that's why she does what she does. Like, okay, fine. But it still feels a bit out of nowhere because she was fine at the beginning of of the season, you know, when they let her nera in. She wasn't depressed the way that she is in the books, you know. She was she's uh just there, and they never showed her to be extremely codependent on Alicent that Alicent leaving for a bit would cause her to spiral this much, you know. Like there has there's no good buildup for Helena, uh Helena, you know, this like her death. There's no good buildup, I think, for it in the show, and that's why it's though I can understand I guess the angle that they took of Helena wanting to escape to a better life because she never felt at home in this one, and yada yada yada. And it just the build-up wasn't um as good as it was in the books. It wasn't structured well, her her her death. So I think that you know, poor sweet Helena, she deserved better. I I find it a bit funny for me to for me to say she deserved better by being more depressed, because that sounds like why we don't want her to be depressed. But what I'm trying to, I guess what I wish for her is a better story.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

Or maybe doesn't work. Maybe change it up and take Jahara from her from her arms. Like you can't have you can't be with your child, that could have sent her over the edge, or have that Renera force the plan B on her. Like you're you're gonna that would have made more sense of her. Okay, you killed my child, you took my other child away from me. Yes, I'm trapped here, I can't do anything, I can't go to the God's Wood or whatever. Um that is making more sense. I mean, I I don't see it uh her ending justified in in her the storytelling of the season. After all this, uh let's applaud Fia Sabin, great job. A different different characterization of Helena that was brought to the table, more of a childlike character, uh kind of artistic in the spectrum in a way, but still innocent, probably the only Teen Green character we are rooting for. Yeah, um, but yeah, great job uh for her. And and it's a bummer that I saw Emma Darcy say, uh we only got to work in these final episodes together, yeah. And so it's just like uh it would have been nice to see both of them on screen. Yeah, let's go to Ranera going to the SEP.

The High Septon Killing And Speech

SPEAKER_05 30:33

A lot of people, when they saw the stills or the images uh for the finale, they thought that there was a funeral.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, it didn't look like it.

SPEAKER_05 30:43

A funeral procession. We have Ranera speaking to Joffrey, no affection, no warmth towards him. But we get to that scene where we uh started the episode with Did you think that was gonna happen? Obviously, I mean I I knew she was gonna have to go over the overboard to get to where we need to get to.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

What do you mean the coronation scene?

SPEAKER_05 31:03

The killing of the set, the high set.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah. Yeah, I did think that was gonna happen, honestly. Like I didn't expect, I guess, to see him again, like prior to the episode. But once they were there, I was like, yeah, that's it. When he, you know, you played the audio clip at the beginning of the episode. He just respected her, obviously as Team Greens. She has no reason to keep him around, she doesn't even believe in his religion. It's just like a show, I guess, like she was doing it out of respect, but he is refusing to treat her with basic respect. So I I don't want to say I understand it, but I mean I saw it coming as soon as they they walked in there. But it I also knew that it's not going to be good for Renera. No. Because the all of Westeros, or like most of them, believe in the Fate of the Seven, and like they just killed their their highest priest, you know.

SPEAKER_05 31:54

So the Pope, basically.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

The Pope that was.

SPEAKER_05 31:56

It was like going to Italy and killing the Pope.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah. So I mean it's not a good look for her, and she shouldn't have done it, honestly, I guess. Because he was very openly resisting her and and going against her.

SPEAKER_05 32:11

So I mean, well, she he defiantly said princess. Yeah, it's earlier in the series. Um, Renera would have understood the political fallout of killing the high setum, but now she's so convinced that her claim to the throne and she's believes it's her destiny, and she should so any action is justified. I mean, but the scene works thematically, it's a terrible move, like you said, it's it's gonna backfire. Uh, she could have imprisoned him, she could have removed him and said, Okay, next person in line, you don't want to do it, okay. Next person, you don't want to do it, like keep going. But I guess she needs to just get it over with. It makes her look less like a legitimate queen and more like a tyrant.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Uh, and when we get to the speech, and a lot of people have said she resembles the evil queen in Snow White, just the outfit. Are you looking it up?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I see it, I see it, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:14

Um, I mean it looks good, but it's just like I'm I'm just happy that she didn't get on a dragon and and go fight because it didn't, it wouldn't have made any sense. Anyway, the speech to the small folk was just downright cringy, in my opinion. Um, these people in King's Landing in Flea Bottom, they don't give a damn about how and why the Targaryens should rule over Westeros. These people don't give a damn about the history of Ovaleria, the doom, they don't give a crap about successions and your dreams and your destinies. And then most of all, they couldn't understand your foreign language and you in proclaiming yourself the prince that was promised.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:58

Oh, I'm exhausted. The prince that was promised. Why? Why are we bringing that back? They had a whole ceremony with her proclaiming her to be the heir. That's all she needs to say. She don't have to say all this. Like, this doesn't make it like if you're uh what would you call yourself? You're from King's Landing, King's Landinger? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Kingslandian.

SPEAKER_05 34:24

If you're there, you're starving because you haven't eaten in a month. Your children are sick, there's no food, there's no work, there's no nothing. And then you have this woman up there, ruler, saying that it's her destiny. Uh, she's speaking about prophecy of ice and fire and uh the doom that's coming. Like, what? Like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

It it does feel weird, and I obviously, obviously don't like hearing about the Prince That was Promised Prophecy. You know, I've mentioned it too many times on this podcast. Now they keep bringing it back up in House of the Dragon. The only thing that I'll say as to like why I kind of understand why Renera is doing this is just because it ties back to the beginning of the episode, which is that people of King's Landing see Aegon as the one that was divinely chosen, you know, after his like resurrection. She thinks that she needs to, I guess, like meet meet that and and also prove that she's the one that's divinely chosen. Aegon isn't gonna come out of nowhere and say, Oh, I heard about this prophecy. So she thinks that if she does this, it's more it's more validation for herself. You know, when you say something, but it's not really for someone else, it's more for you. Like that's what's happening with Renera here. I have said this before where I don't like that they kind of make the prophecy a part of the war and you know, make that the motivation because they have already so much story to work with, you know, revenge, her losing her sons, and right and power, greed. There's so much there for them to work with without the prophecy. I agree that it doesn't need to be there, but they started season one with it, you know. So I understand why it's still being brought up.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

No, I understand what you're saying, but I think she just needed a bit a better speech writer.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

She she was she was a known.

SPEAKER_05 36:12

This was a rough draft, and she needed somebody to look over her words. We're like, yeah, let's not say that. Uh do not end your do not end your speech speaking high Valerian. Uh they're not gonna know what the heck you're saying. And let's leave out let's leave out the zombie part, and let's leave out the old doom because they don't care about that. Um, talk about uh what you're gonna do for them. Um Aegon didn't do this for you. I'm gonna bring you this, I'm gonna bring you that. I am the the chosen one by my father, the rightful heir who will bring peace and blah blah blah to the to to this city and to the realm. That that could have been her speech, but I think she's just it's it's gone for now. Uh um and then Masaria being in the crowd, which just makes me laugh because she dismisses Masaria um for I mean fires her. Like, you're you're you're horrible at your drop. How do you not know this? She should have been the first one to know and tell me about Aegon and Sunfire days before anybody else knew. Um, I remember in uh season two of Game of Thrones where Davos tells his kid, Lord Varys knew what you had for breakfast three days ago. Like he knows everything. Um, she's better, she she knows how to network with the small folk. Um, I guess I'm gonna just say a spoiler here.

Spoiler Alert: Shepherd Theory

SPEAKER_05 37:28

I'm just gonna say one, two, three spoiler alert, and then I'm just gonna say what I think, and you can we can go from there. Okay, one, two, three, here's your spoiler. So I'm just gonna call it now that Masaria is going to be the shepherd.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Oh, I saw that theory floating around.

SPEAKER_05 37:44

The reason why is they haven't introduced anybody as the shepherd.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

Uh they're not gonna spend time doing that. They don't have it, they don't have it. That's because they don't have the time. They never set it up, and they also didn't um set up that the the small folk actually loved Helena. The news about Helena jumping or killing herself is gonna turn into Renera murdered her, and that's gonna, you know, cause an uproar, and that's gonna cause small folk to, you know, storm the dragon pit. And that is gonna be Masaria.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, it it's could work, it could happen. I saw one very random fan account notice that, you know, there's artwork of of The Shepherd online and how George described him. And there's an extra that looks exactly like him. I don't know if you've seen that man in the background of a couple of scenes, but there's a this was a random like fan account that's popped up for me where someone like caught this this extra that looks exactly like the drawings and fan arts, and they were like, oh, like he has been seen, he has been spotted. And then immediately after that I saw the theory that they're gonna turn Missaria into the shepherd and combine those two characters, and I think that that's it it could happen. It could happen. Or I mean if it was a different character, he should have been introduced by now.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

Yeah, or they can have Masaria prop this guy up as she's the puppet master.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

The same that they did for Torin, like just like an image kind of.

SPEAKER_05 39:17

I have all the insider information I can tell you. Um, here's the thing, this is what they're doing inside the keep, this is what they're doing, this is what they do to you, that they don't care about you, blah blah blah blah blah, and then go from there.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Um considering we only have eight episodes left, I don't think there's time for all that.

Spoiler done:

SPEAKER_05 39:33

Alright. Spoiler is done. Okay, what I found comical about the Masaria thing is a spy, a quote spy master or master of whisperers, it's not that has so many secrets, it's not someone you casually exile. Oh, yeah, just go, just go to Pentos. Yeah, we're good. You gotta either imprison her or execute her, one of the two. You can't just let her be around somewhere. And I thought that was a bad decision by Renera. And I I I figure that it's gonna end up biting her at the end. Because you can kind of see in Masara looking at her during the speech, like beginning the plot, you know. Oh, what am I gonna do? Because, you know, she doesn't care about these people. We'll go from there. Going back to

Last scene of the episode

SPEAKER_05 40:18

the end of the episode, uh, with Helena's death and Renera going into her room and her just finding the tapestry, finding the thing that she's been weaving or woven, how you say it. It was a brilliant performance, and Emma Darcy and their expressions and how they their face card is amazing. Of how do they do that? I don't understand how they can do it so perfectly. Their expressions, what did you see? What did you get out of it?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

I honestly thought it was, I guess, a mix of things, because to me I didn't think it was like joy, but I think maybe a part of it was relief. Um people were like, oh, she just doesn't care. I think that maybe a part of it is her coldness, but I think she was just a bit like okay, that's taken care of.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

I think, but you know, I don't know, that's you mean seeing herself full of blood and and fire.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Oh my god, I jumped ahead with Rhaenyra seeing Helena's body. Sorry, sorry. No, with Ranira seeing the tapestry, I think maybe she was a bit panicked knowing Helena was a a seer. But it's kind of like that feeling when you feel something and then immediately bottle it up and you pretend like you don't like you're not scared or that you I didn't see the thing that you saw. That's what she what I saw on Reneira's face then. Yeah. Almost denial.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Like she's denying that she's kind of scared because Helena is a seer, and that's as she opened the door and shut it really quick. Yeah, and she's like, I I wanna pretend in a way that like okay, that's it.

SPEAKER_05 42:09

What did you see in there? No, I close the door, I don't want to talk about it. Uh I see a lot of memes of a win is a win. I'll take it. I'm on the throne. If I die here, whatever, but I'll be queen. Uh yeah, that that's that's what I got out of it. I think it's just her, she's putting it in the back burner. Like, I don't, I'm gonna, I'll deal with it when it comes. Like, maybe, maybe that's me tomorrow, maybe that's me in 20 years. Just because she's dreaming it doesn't mean it's gonna happen immediately. Uh, but that's what I got. I just I think it was a good way to end the the show with that. Okay,

Harrenhal Lore And Aegon Meets Aemond

SPEAKER_05 42:46

I here's my biggest question I have for you because we're gonna move on to our favorite place to go to Heron Hall. In season two, we got so tired of Heron Hall, and we finally got in the finale Damon coming and proclaiming Renera the queen, and that that's great, blah blah blah. That story's done, and then this season we have Eamon there. And I wish they would have just had Alice. She was married to King Heron the Black in season two. Like we speculated, like she's a witch, she's a Melisandre. Um, she's probably was she was probably there with when Aegon the Conqueror burned down Heronhall with Valerion the Dread, and she was there when Heron the Black and all his sons perished or died in flames, which is a cool story, a cool lore. But what does that have to do with Amond? Like, wouldn't he be freaked out? Like, okay, so you're how old are you? It was a good monologue, really good performance by her. But again, like w where are we going with this? Are we gonna go back to Heron Hall next season with her again? What's your take on the Because this is not kid? This is not canon, this is just speculated in in fire and blood. It's not something that George has written down. So this is the show saying that. And other people just said like, maybe she's just making it up. Maybe those eggs that she showed Aamon are just an illusion uh uh he is seeing just to kind of manipulate him.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

I don't think that um Alice was lying in the scene. I think that she was genuine. I think that it is kind of confirmed for the show canon that she's this ancient witch, and it makes sense, I think, for the show. Maybe does have a few plot holes, because if I'm not mistaken, she has this curse that she's never going to die. So technically that means that she might be alive during the time of Game of Thrones. So I don't know, it might cause some plot holes, but like just on the surface, I think that she was being genuine. I didn't think that she was dying. And I think that she revealed it to um Eamon rather than Damon because she has a thing going with Eamon. Like he trusts her, and I think that at this moment they've both warmed up to each other. With Damon, I don't think like she obviously didn't trust him, and he would have been freaked out by that to the point where he probably would have done something that's right and killed her or gets rid of her. So she doesn't trust Damon at all, I think, for her to um be vulnerable with him with that information. So that's just why I think she was just straight up with Aemon. And also I think she wanted to show him where you know you've been vulnerable with me all season. I'm going to do the same to you and show you that I've gone through stuff too and share this part too, just so that they have like a mutual trust going on. And I think that like, is there love there? No, I think that maybe he's infatuated with her, but I and I don't think that she's purely playing him, I think that she has warmed up to him, but I don't think that it's complete fallen in love, you know.

SPEAKER_05 45:45

It's so funny because I was so excited that we got Alice Rivers in the show when we when we first saw her. I'm like, oh my gosh, she's gonna be so good. And then now I'm like, nothing against the character against her, it's just like it's the show's fault. We go forward here and we're gonna talk about Eamon waking up. We think he's having another dream or another vision because he's hallucinating in Heron Hall, but no, it's Aegon flying in with Sunfire, and this is to me the best scene of the not the season, but of the season finale.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

You are dead.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

I'm alive, imbecile.

SPEAKER_05 46:37

Okay, so I my son and I we had to stop and like rewind it because we were laughing, like, and I I couldn't stop laughing. Like, I had to see that once again. It's just so him, and I hate the fact that I'm liking his performances, he's such a terrible C-word, you know. And I just uh Tom Glenn Carney is just so good, and then just I mean, I I wouldn't be surprised if he got some kind of supporting nomination for some award show, but that's just perfect. That's him.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

I saw people are are already quoting him and being like, This is like the line of the season, and you know, it's up there with bring Egon, the usurper, to me. It's just it's so perfectly delivered, and there was another moment in the season, I can't remember which one it was, not the speech that he gave where you really admired his performance as well.

SPEAKER_05 47:32

Um, yeah, well, the when Sapphire comes out, when he's basically knows he's gonna die, he's gonna say, you know, come at me.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Was there not a moment before that? I don't think I can remember.

SPEAKER_05 47:42

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Either like no matter what it was, I think like it was it's surprising, I guess, that this was such a here and there, Tom Glencarney had such great moments because again, like he his he just disappears in the book, you know, Aegon just disappears and reappears. It's not all of this is not in the in the book. So I'm glad that he had those moments and he really makes Aegon Aegon. So even though we're you know we're not fans of his character, I just think yeah, it was so um well done.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

I think his performance is well done.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

And I like this alliance as well. Like, I don't like Team Greens, but very interesting. I want to call it.

SPEAKER_05 48:19

Well, I mean, this is an alliance, this is an alliance that was there from the beginning in the in Fire and Blood. And this is the this this is the one big change that happened when you know they had Amen in the show try to usurp the throne and you know kill almost kill his brother. Uh, but the best meme about this I'm alive is uh somebody wrote, My plants when I left them three weeks without water and come back from vacation. I'm alive.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Oh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Brother, brother, I beg for you forgiveness.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

I should split you in half. I should have sunfire burn you alive but slowly so I can see your skin peel and blister you Kinslayer You usurper You can't no, no, no, no, no, no, no! I was supposed to enjoy this. What's wrong with you? Fight me.

SPEAKER_05 50:08

I gotta suffer again. I thought that's brilliant as well, because uh healthy Aemon is gonna kill you. Hey gosh, he will slice you in half if they actually fought. But him him saying, No, no, no, no, no. I wanted to enjoy every bit of this, and you are dampening my mood here. Like, what are you doing? Why do you look so defeated? I can't like him, he's like feeling sorry for his brother. It's it's it's brilliant, I think. Uh like I said, best best scene.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah, um, I really like the scene as well. He I think it's so surprising for him to see Eamon like this. Um, and when I said earlier that, oh, I'm like here, I guess, not that I support Team Green Zoos, but like I was saying that I'm here for this alliance, I guess, just because now it's going to be such an interesting dynamic because um Eamon is at his lowest, and when he sees Aegon spare him, he he sees it as a second chance. This whole season we've been seeing him um like in torment, or he's being tormented by and haunted by the fact that he tried to kill um Aegon. So I think that now he's going to be more of the Aemon that we know from the books, who's very loyal to Team Greens and will be, I don't know, would he come back stronger than ever? So I don't think it'll be very interesting. I I know we only have eight episodes left, and I know where the show or where the books go, but we could see Eamon go from his lowest to the strongest. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

I mean he goes on to just say, we're gonna go to Tumbleton, we're gonna find Vagar, and you and I are gonna go and root out Orman and root out Darren, who now says he's the king, and we'll do that, and then I'll go back to sitting on an iron throne, and we're gonna put Renera's head on a spike through all this, and then maybe I'll forgive you if all this happens, and I'm back on top. Uh, so again, brilliant scene, loved it. Um, though the interesting part is what they do with Alice if he leaves. What is Alice gonna do? Is she gonna go with him? Is she going well? I don't know. Well, we'll go

Tumbleton Battle And Dragon Chaos

SPEAKER_05 52:16

from there. All right, let's go straight to the battle at Tumbleton. Let's start with Ormond knighting Daron. Daron the daring. Uh, I think it was completely different with because we've seen knighting scenes already in Game of Thrones, we've seen it in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. This was a I am assuming that every knight who knights somebody has that same script of what they have to say, and I think Orman goes off script and adds all this other stuff that you have to be loyal to your liege lord. And I mean, you're talking to a prince and the guy you want to be king. Why does he have what are you talking about? I think it's more of a way of keeping him under his thumb and to manipulate Daron to add all that verbiage to the knighting ceremony because it it should have been less than 30 seconds, and it was like he he made a speech out of it.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

I have a different theory. I maybe mine is far-fetched, but I thought of it, I guess. I just want to say. First of all, before he knights him, what I really like, just like uh as a comment, is that the scene starts with him getting dressed and in such an elaborate armor, it's so intricately designed and beautiful piece of costume design, but the meaning as well that like lies behind it is that he doesn't he's not he's not a soldier, you know. We know that he isn't because he can't be one, you know. He has that aversion to smell, so he obviously wouldn't have been the Kristen Cole type of soldier, you know.

SPEAKER_05 53:57

He can't he can't live that life and he never has shows a little bit at the end, but I mean like not I mean he shows that he actually has some kind of training, at least. He wasn't like a new some kind of training, but not he's not a proper person, he's not uh he's not John Roxton or Damon.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

No, no, or Damon or anyone, yeah. So I like that he has this elaborate armor and he like never really used this as not the armor of a true soldier to compare that to the Winter Wolf's armor, for instance. So I I like that double meaning there, and my weird, maybe far-fetched theory, which I hope maybe I don't know, the showrunners can confirm or deny one day is that he doesn't say the speech, you know, in the by the name of the father, by the name of the mother, the he doesn't say that typical speech because he isn't an actual knight and doesn't know the official words. Like I just looked it up when when as we were recording, and there's not like a lot of information. Like it says he fought here or he fought there, but the show we've established that the show Orbin is entirely different to the book Orban because in the book he's married, he has kids, it's it's a completely different story, it's a different person. Um, in the show, we just see him as this kind of perfumed rich kid.

unknown 55:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Foiled cousin of the high tower.

SPEAKER_05 55:13

Are you calling him another dunk?

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Yes, literally dunk came to mind. But obviously, there's a there's a difference because dunk is, you know, he has ethics and he's a good guy, whereas Ormond is, you know. And I like that though he said that speech, it shows that he kind of like has some idea of what this the original speech is, which is, you know, um protecting women, protecting children and the innocent, but it's not the exact phrasing because he has no reason not to say the official speech, because the official speech is related to his own religion, which is of that of the faith of the seven, yeah, which he believes in and uses as part of his propaganda. So if he was a real knight and he has heard that speech before, why would he not say it? So that's my yes one comment in the real knight.

SPEAKER_05 56:00

It would have been funny if Gwane would have interrupted him and be like, What are you what are you doing? You don't know the words. Uh yeah, um, lots have happened in Tumbleton. So a few things. Uh, I love the scene between Gwen, Corless, and Damon, and then you have Roddy the ruin just interject. Can I just please kill this guy? I'll say it in a nicer way, friendly, friendlier language, the way he was saying it. And then we have the greens propping up kids or Orman propping up the children of Tumbleton on the top to basically be like collateral damage. And you have a Damon who says, who is, I guess Renera tells him, just be mindful of how you kill, don't just go crazy in there and start blazing because he could have just gone in blazing and just whatever, and just kill all the high towers and be like, you know what? This little town is dissected. We just need to get these guys out and kill them. So he was kind of being cautious in a way, but it doesn't work, it didn't work at the end.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

You know, he was as cautious as he could be. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I think what's kind of funny is uh, first of all, you have the hipp the hypocrisy of Ormond when he says, Oh, you need to protect the women and children, and then his like line of defense is kids, like he uses kids to to kind of like defend Tumbleton, which is you know, just shows there's like there have been moments here and there that shows his hypocrisy, and this is one of them. Um, and it's kind of ironic that he uses it because the thing that Damon is one of the things that he's most known for is killing a baby, you know, blood and cheese.

SPEAKER_05 57:44

Yeah, that's what John Roxanne yells a babe killer.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Yeah, so it's like you're not really testing Damon, even though you know Damon didn't actually do that. But um, yeah, insane because I I think that it was you know, it's it's all Ulf's fault. It's not it's not uh Team Blacks didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_05 58:08

Yeah, I mean it's this is the hmm, how do I say this? I think I mentioned the loser mentality. I mean, and deep down he's an alcoholic. He's a alcoholic, he's probably the least worthy person to ever have a dragon. And and it sucks that a person like Raina couldn't get a dragon, but this imbecile, a true imbecile, did. Um, and he there's a scene of him just boasting about him and oh, I'm gonna kill these these traitors, and then Damon, you know, he's a the bad the queen of bastards, this, this, and that, just kind of showing off. And then he he's he's already hammered basically. Yeah, um, that should they should have called him off the hammered because he's always drunk. Uh the the way he's found, he's found in the latrine, basically. He's sitting there with his pants down, probably full of number two, and he gets in there. So he beats him down, and for a split second, I go, you know what? He's gonna go all crazy. I I figured in my head, he's I knew he was gonna betray them, obviously, but I think he's gonna do everything because why would he be smacking him around like this? And you could see the the his reaction to Orman like hitting me. What I get upset is that why is Damon in the front lines? He's a general, and a general should not be uh in there, he should be in the back, like okay, you guys go in, you guys go in. That's how usually works out because we don't want him to die. And my son's like, if he dies, I'm not watching this show anymore. Because why would he go in there? Like, you have the Winter Wolf, you have all these soldiers, you have the the Rivermen, let them do their thing. You have Caracas as backup, you have Ulf the White, just in case. Um, and if seeing Ulf attack, he would have gone on Caracas and taken care of it. I I get why they had to have him in there, but just it logically, it doesn't make sense. They gave him the plot armor, so you're getting okay, and then they show us that he's not really a fighter. Like he's always getting beaten. Yeah, he got beat by Cole, we always remember that. And now he he, if it wasn't for the houses coming down and the dragon fire, he was probably gonna get killed by John Roxton.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Don't have much else to say on that scene, just because it it I understand why they kept him there, because if he was in King's Landing or if he was in the back strategizing, you'd get the fans, especially the show fans, complaining that, oh, but why isn't Damon there? We want Damon content, we want Damon in Basset. So I understand that that's why they did it, but it's not how do I put this? Um like why why weaken Damon too? You know, like why puts him in that situation where he's like almost defeated by John Rox. The same way where I uh last week I was complaining that they weakened Reneira. Why do that to your fan favorites?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:08

And why I think it was a choice of giving us that call back to season eight, the Bell's episode with Arya seeing the destruction around her and seeing the the smoke and the flames. It kind of reminded me of that with Damon and that's you know, you always get the slow motion, you know, panning out and seeing the destruction around you. Is he getting his Kristen Cole? Like, oh my god, look what we've done, look what we're doing with this war. All these innocent people are dying. I mean, that's what it looked like. I don't know if that's gonna cross over to the next season of him being okay, oh well, you know, collateral damage. Or is it gonna stick with him like it did Cole? So I I I think that was the whole reason of having that slow motion part of him seeing everything. I I do want to say something that I I it was pretty vicious, but I actually kind of liked and I think was needed to see that all the north is so honorable, yeah. Um when that little kid hits Roddy in the knee and he turns around, just axes his whole face. I mean, that's the thing is brutal, but I think it was perfect and it was needed. Like, you know what? We don't care. Ned Stark was unique, he was one he was one person. Not all the north is Ned Stark.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Yeah, that's so true. The winter wolves are supposed to be like the most brutal fighters as well, so yeah, why not have them do that? I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:43

I mean, I it was it was it was beautiful. He goes, Are you still willing to die for your queen? I can't wait. He goes, You go in, you open the gate, but do not die. Okay, open gate, then die. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:00

It's always funny to me when you see two main characters find each other at the end of a this chaotic, this chaos running with soldiers coming here and there, dragon fire, and it it's it always reminds me of um the horrible scene in Dark Knight Rises at the end, which I like the movie, but Batman and Bane are fighting in the middle of 10,000 guys and nobody's so bad. Anyway, so I mean, obviously, we needed to see Roddy fight Lord uh Orman, and people are saying that it's symbolic on how he died because he was always making fun of Gwane's because he was basically saying you're feminine, you know what I mean? The way he got killed was um, I don't know how to say it. Uh I don't know. Yeah, yeah, you know what I'm saying. It's just the way he, and then Roddy's words to him are just you know, this is the the way it's gonna happen. But then you have off coming down and say FU2 and they start blazing everybody in the city, and the two different reactions, you have Roddy just his hands, yes, this is how I'm gonna die in Dragonfire, you know what I mean, after killing my opponent, and then you have you know Orman like dying under this beast that he's been so you know, he's called abominations, he's gonna die from that dragonfire, which is perfect, you know what I mean. Um, so you have Silverwing flying away, you have Caraxis um chasing Silverwing, and then you have Vermathor chasing them both. And there's no writer, so Hugh is not on Vermathor. And actually, well, we got to mention Hugh finds his wife dead, cat. Yeah, and you everybody who's been watching this, you can make your own conclusions on what's gonna happen next. I don't think we have to say anything. Uh, but yeah, that was an interesting way of seeing the three dragons go because I I at first I didn't understand what was going on. So I thought that was Hugh chasing Karasis, but then when I watched the scene, I kind of paused and there's no rider on him. So here's the biggest question, Mark, that everybody's having is what happened to Daron?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:12

We have this this whole season long of this boy being tortured mentally by Ormen, like I mentioned earlier. We we thought I thought I were gonna see a scene of him finally saying, you know what, standing up to him. I this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna help these people because he wanted to go out with Cesareon and be like, I need to help my people. My if they're willing to die, I need to be willing to die as well. They need to see me out there in the front lines, and then he sees Of burning down all the team blacks, and he goes, Oh, okay, we're good. I'll go back. But we don't see him again. I know that in Fire and Blood, it says that he died in you know in one of the battles, but his body was never recovered, so there wasn't like actual proof of his. Him dying. So I wonder if they're gonna just stick to that and be like, oh, he's dead. He died in the rubble or something, a building collapsed on him, or something like that. Because I don't see how his character goes on without Ormond. And you know what I mean? Like, how is that gonna work with Aemon and Aegon together? Are they gonna forgive him and say, hey, Gwane could talk to Aegon, but hey, it wasn't his fault. Maybe. I mean, and then they'll have Tesarion join as well, but he's just a baby dragon. I mean, he fits in a room, that's how small he is.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

I don't know. I mean, I can't really figure out a plot line for Gwain or Daron. I assume, like it's just a pure assumption at the end of season three, going on to season four, that's what they will do is that they're both that obviously Gwain survived. Daron's gonna somehow survive, and then they're gonna reunite with Annacent. Maybe I don't know, very wild prediction. They're gonna have Alison run away with Dehran. I don't know. I have no idea. I'm purely just rambling here.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:06

Like I thought that just occurred to me. Yeah, you

Loose Ends Ratings And Season Wrap

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

mentioned Alison. We didn't mention her. So uh we get the scene with the butterflies. Now it's a beautiful, somber, heartbreaking moment. Is she realizing that Helena's dead, or is that another stab at George with the butterflies?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Oh god, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:26

Where do we go with Allison from here? Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:30

Um, Gwen in the book was dead way long ago when they captured King's Landing, so his storyline is gonna be new to us, so we we're gonna be guessing with with everybody as well. Okay, I think this is gonna be our longest episode covering the season. Obviously, it's the finale, a lot to say. Um, why don't we uh give our ratings for the treasons at Tumbleton?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

Again, I don't know what I rated previous episodes. You know what I did.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:02

The last one you did 6.5. We both did 6.5.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

I think this for me would be somewhere between a 7.5 and an eight. Maybe a seven, let's go 7.7 or 7.8. Yeah, I kind of wanted to give it an eight uh at the beginning, but honestly, I just remembered all those things that I called weird and odd and strange that I think have no business being in in in the finale. And uh this episode, honestly, I think I mentioned this at the beginning of our recording. It should have been episode five or six of the season. I think episode six, like what happens here should have happened in like in episode six, and then seven and eight should have progressed the story further. Um, I think that that's would have been would have made for maybe a stronger season if all of this happened previously. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:49

I'm gonna agree. Um, I I don't think it was a bad or great episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

So um I don't want to be the same, so I'm just gonna do seven point five. Uh and maybe it'll go up. Like I said, we're gonna um do a recap episode of the whole entire season, and maybe um I'm gonna rewatch the episode, and maybe it'll go up to eight. I mean, who knows? I can't believe season three is done. I mean, we've been doing this podcast since 2023, and season two had season one had just premiered the year prior, and then we got season two, now season three. Hopefully, we get a season five or we get more episodes in season three or season four, because I don't think eight is gonna be in.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

Let's hope so.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:38

Thank you, Walt, for listening to the 93rd episode of Dancing with Dragons, and thank you for taking this journey with us and covering House of the Dragon season three. Whatever our qualms with the changes, we are happy to have any song of Ice and Fire adapted material to cover for years to come. Like I mentioned, right now we'll be doing a more in-depth look into season three of House of the Dragon, our likes, dislikes, are, and really focus on what the show did right and our thoughts on what the show could have been in our eyes in terms of adapting and changing story arcs from the novel. To stay updated on when this episode will be released. Do the show a solid and rate review share using your preferred podcast platform. We really appreciate that. On to our next episode, peace out.