"The Dragon In Winter" HOTD: S3 | EP7

For our 92nd episode of the pod, Tony & Minwa get brutally honest about why The Dragon in Winter leaves us annoyed, from repeated Harrenhal detours to character choices that make key players feel weaker than they should. We still find bright spots in Helaena’s visions, Dreamfyre’s reveal, and Aegon’s standout moment with Sunfyre, even as we worry the finale has too much left to carry.

Transcript

Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Hello everybody and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, and George R. Martin's world of a song of ice and fire. My name is Minua and I'm here with my co-host Tony. If you've been following along and listening to our podcast so far, you'll know that we're in the midst of our week-to-week episode-episode coverage of House of the Dragon Dragon season 3. And today we're at the seventh and penultimate episode of the season, titled The Dragon in Winter. A very mysterious and intriguing title. The official premise goes: Torn between Missaria and Damon's visions for her reign, Renira grows desperate for a sign that she will prevail. The episode was written by Philippa Goslett and Zinzeli Price, and it was directed by Nina Lopez Carrado. Before we get to the episode, I also want to mention that a couple of days ago, August 1st marked the 30th anniversary of the publication of A Game of Thrones by Georgia R. Martin, the first book in the series, which is insane. And funnily enough, I've seen so many fans of the show and content creators online that make content related to Game of Thrones. They were all kind of surprised by the fact that it's the 30th anniversary. I feel like it kind of snuck up on all of us while we're so focused on House of the Dragon. And because it's kind of snuck up on us, no one really could do much to celebrate because we were just suddenly realized that was 30th anniversary. But um yeah, I think we should at one point do some sort of celebratory 30-year anniversary of Game of Thrones sometime this year. Um what about you, Tony? Did you know that was the 30th anniversary, or did you forget like me, like and many other Game of Thrones content creators out there? And also, how are you and how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Um that's a lot. Yeah, I was not aware. I mean, I knew that the book came out in '96. I wasn't aware of the anniversary. Um, I saw it um probably like you with the content creators on TikTok, but there's one guy uh named Westerosi. Westerossio with the zero at the end. Um he made a post about the 30th anniversary of the book. But but anyway, um doing well. I mean, this whole uh House of the Dragon thing, I've I I feel like kind of lost my patience with the show. Um, I now have a feeling that George was right again, and he he kind of saw he saw the future, he saw where it was going, and adaptations will never be 100% perfect. And sometimes shows come up with better storylines and arcs, and we go, okay, that wasn't in the book, but I that's okay, I like it. But here we

Patience Runs Out With Season Choices

SPEAKER_01 2:33

have so many perplexing changes, not for the better. And I I'm just um uh uh can we just get into this like we're just gonna get into it.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Yeah, that's because I I feel similarly, so I can't wait to talk about it. Let's I mean let's go into get into the episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

That's full theme ahead. Uh okay, so there's just a few things that I'm sick of already, and I've been holding it in of this season, especially after this episode seven. Heronhall, I am tired of Heron Hall. First uh season two with Damon, we were stuck there for pretty much the whole season. Now we're we're back with season three with Eamon and like okay, what what is I want somebody to sit me down and explain to me like I'm a five-year-old. What is the point of him being there? I I know what the point is with the future, but make it enjoyable, make it mysterious, make it somewhat make sense, and now you throw in the Alicent storyline of her being an assassin and her trying to kill her son. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. I mean, and well, another thing I'm sick of, I'm sick of Masaria, I'm sick of Renera not trusting the people who have been there for her. I know Damon can be untrustworthy, but to think about it as a whole, who's been there for her the most? Him. Who's been the most? I mean, he's not 100% loyal, but he's been 100% loyal for the last whatever in this war. And for her to clock Masaria's manipulation was great, and I thought, oh, here we go, she's gonna get rid of Masaria. To then turn around 15 seconds later looking at Masaria's you know, whatever I won't say it, like she's a starve-hungry sex kitten. I it didn't make any sense. All right, I I'm I'm getting I'm gonna start hyperventilating. So you can jump in right now and tell me what you think about that particular scene is what what is that?

SPEAKER_03 4:39

I was so frustrated by that scene because as you said, um not just that scene, but I guess like where this is going. Because I mean you said it all Damon has proven to be the most loyal, he's been proven to be the one that I guess gets the job uh uh done more than anybody else. And if you think about it, what what did Missario do for her that's that valuable? She didn't do anything. She's just there as I guess some sort of emotional support, but it's not good enough. Damon was again he is capable of that sometimes, you know. Like he did go to Rainiera in this episode and um wanted to connect and explain it, which is completely reasonable, by the way, why he he covered for Raina.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

And I just don't understand why they're doing this. And I also one of the reasons why I'm frustrated with it is because it makes Rainiera a weak, uh a weaker character. If this was just removed, she would she would be a stronger character. But now you have her as someone that isn't clocking, someone that is, I guess, uh what is it called, untruthful to her? You know what I mean? Like she isn't clocking the manipulation completely like she did, but she's turning a blind eye. Why make her a strong, ruthless character? Why is she I guess ignoring it? Or why it's not a good enough reason, even if she's attracted to Missarius, it's not a good enough reason. She's queen. Why make this her a part of her character in her plot line?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

She I think that uh the visions and the prophecy is a safety net for her. Oh, this is gonna work out, and Missarias knows that oh, it's gonna be okay, everything's gonna fall in line. You will be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like telling her what she wants to hear, similar to Aegon with Laris, but I hate that it's working for Reneera because she's supposed to be better than that. With Aegon, we understand we're like, oh yeah, or even with Aemon, we're like, yeah, they they're they they're eating up these like lies that people tell them and and what they want to hear, and another person knows that this is what they want to hear, so it's just all manipulation. And we blame it on, I guess, the lack of uh a proper like a parental figure, I guess, for for Eamon and Aegon. We're like, no, no one was really there for them, it's understandable, but with Rinera, I understand that like she lost her mom at a young age, but at the same time, she's supposed to be so much better than her brother. She's supposed to be stronger, and she I just think with all of this, they just weakened her character. Why make her this type of person that just eats up the the uh I guess empty words that's being hurled at her anyway? Well, she likes support of her character.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

She likes to be ghastlit. Um, here's the one thing the one thing that I I will say about maybe Ranera is holding uh Masaria in a higher esteem because if it wasn't for Masaria, maybe she'd be dead. Because she's the one that pointed out that Arik was coming back to to kill her. So we don't know if she doesn't, she goes, you know what, whatever, I'm leaving. Like, what what's gonna happen? Would Ranera be killed at that moment? So she can probably say, you know what, she saved my life.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Like, that's I'm gonna even Demon saved her life. Everybody, and you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Like, yeah, maybe she's being loyal to that part, and also if you're not gonna have nettles in the show, and for for people who now now that this nettles thing is done, apparently it's closed after five, six episodes. If you're not gonna have the nettles arc from the sh from the book because nettles and demon hooked up, I could just say it now because it's not gonna happen, and we didn't want to have Ronera be cheated on, but then you go turn around and have Ronera cheat on Damon at the end of the so what is the point?

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_03 8:28

So I remember saying in the beginning of the season, I think that oh, the like one of the reasons why they're cutting up the net's storyline is because um is because like that's aspect of this storyline, Damon, you know, um, cheating on Reneira, would be very um this would make Diamond an unlikable character and everybody's rooting for Damon, he's the fan favorite. Well, the same thing can be said for Rene. A lot of people love her. Why? Um why go and do add that to her character? And not only that, people had a bad reception to her kiss in season two. Mostly from what I've seen, you you a lot of people were just confused as to why it was included. So why take it to the next level in the next season when people didn't like that about season two and like not change the topic, but funnily enough, it's the same thing that can be said for Eamon and Damon as well, when we have season two with Damon being stuck in Harrenhall and the same repetitive, repetitive thing. And then in this episode, just more and more of like nothing of substance with Eamund in Harrenhall again. So I don't know why it's like they didn't learn, I guess I don't say didn't learn their lesson, but it's like they didn't hear any feedback from season two because when the fans came in and said we didn't like this and this and this and this, either they just didn't we chose not to to listen, I guess, to the fans and George, obviously, or they just didn't care and said, you know what? No, we we we know that this is good, and even though people people just don't like it, so I don't know why they they're doubling down on what fans didn't like and what George obviously didn't fight.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I don't want I hate that I'm saying this, but at times it feels like we're like at this for this episode, it felt like fan fiction at uh at times.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Yeah,

Harrenhal Fatigue And Character Dilution

SPEAKER_04 10:09

yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

And going back to Aamon, like they took one of the you know great villains of season one and somewhat of season two, and they're just turning him into this his whole personality now is centering around my mommy, and it's robbing him of his ferocity as a character that we that we need in him, and then just having Alison there again in this in a situation where it's plain to see that they have no idea what to do with Allison in the show, because we've explained before in other episodes, like Alison is not at all around when the Dance of Dragons is happening, the civil war, like she's kept in a room, and we don't hear from her, I think, till later in the in the chapters. Like they'll they'll mention her here and there. So they're like, okay, what do we do with Olivia Cook? We need to have her face, we need to see her in the show. We can't have her not be in the episodes. So it just feels like okay, you know what? Let's do um this uh Assassin's plot, and then you have to think about you know what I started thinking about because it was so corny. How did they get there so fast?

SPEAKER_03 11:20

So if you think the season eight Game of Thrones criticism as well, where they're just trying to cut, you know, to cut the time and be like, oh, next episode immediately she's there.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

So yeah, and I for some reason I go, you know what? Let me Google it. Let me Google King's Landing to Heron Hall on horseback, you know, two people, and it said uh seven to ten days. Uh if you have a if you have an army, it'll maybe take a fortnight, you know, two weeks or more.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

So so you're saying that it it's ten days later, and we're you know what I mean, like I know, I know, I know, Tony, I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

And uh well, actually, you know what? Um, we were gonna talk about Helena's vision, but since we're talking about the silly thing and the mommy issues, and like at first you have that first scene of Aamon and Allison, and they're all all of a sudden they're in bed. And I my son's like, what is going on? I go, that's Alice. He's messing. Like, I knew right away that was like there's no way that Allison was gonna let that happen. Like you could see the difference when the real Allison showed up, like she was still um uh apprehensive to get close. Like she you could see the wheel spinning in her brain. Okay, what do I say here? Um But that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Are you talking about like we see uh like Alison's think, but it's really Alice thinking? Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The the part where he admits to trying to kill Aegon, and and she goes, Oh, you foolish boy. She's trying to figure out what to say to not because she he knows she knows he's a loose can and he can do anything, especially after killing the assassin. Uh you know, that was what was his name, sir.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Uh Adrian.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Aaron, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, yeah. I'm just tired of Heron Hall, I'm tired of the Alice thing. They took one of the great mysterious castles with so much lore and history, and now I'm tired of seeing it. Like, I don't want to be it's like every time we have a good scene, we get Heronhall, and it's like a freaking a big wall, and you have to stop. All the momentum is gone, and you're like, okay, hurry up, let's go. Because we're we're not getting any new information. The only thing we know now is that Alice is wants a baby really bad.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

I I mostly agree with you. I I mean I'm I guess I completely agree with you with the Heron Hall stuff. It's they just turned it, I guess, into a place we're kind of sick of hearing about. It's like it feels like a cheap haunted house as well. Um, and something like I caught a detail in the scene. Um I hated how the the scene opened, by the way, with like um like it being Alice and all that. I hated it. But I think that it did expose uh something, which is that a lot of people, I think we talked about as well in a previous episode, they said that like um Alice is a mystical witch, like um Melisandra, and she's in control of all the visions. But when Amund was having that vision, when we see that like it cuts in when we see that it's actually Alice, she tells him, What did you see? So I don't think that she actually is aware of what exactly he's seeing. Um I just wanted to make that note because a lot of people did think that she was manipulating all of the scenes, and I think that because she was so shocked and taken aback and said, Oh, what did you see? It's just at least some confirmation that that's not maybe all entirely her control. Yeah. Um, and as you said, I just hated how they um I guess diluted Aamon's character so much to the point where it's just this. He was someone that was out for vengeance, it wasn't just you know, uh his issues with his mom and and and all of that. It was more like he was he always felt like he was excluded and he wanted revenge, he wanted to prove himself. And now I understand we're seeing, I guess, Viserys' children and in their most vulnerable and weakest states, and this is maybe what we're seeing, okay. But uh you reduced his character completely to one thing, to that the relationship he has with Alicent. And I don't think that's it's um it's good enough. Like as I said, when they they weakened Renier's character with all the Masaria stuff, they're weakening Amon's character with it's his whole life and his whole identity being revolved around Alice. Change it up. I'm sick of it. Like, give us back that's kid that that's that's what that's wanted that you know wanted revenge and claimed Vagar. Where's that kid?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

The kid would have just uh pushed away out Alice Rivers and go, I'm gonna find my beloved dragon and try to go out on horseback and Vagar,

Helaena’s Visions And Dreamfyre Revealed

SPEAKER_01 16:00

where are you? Or something, you know what I mean? Uh but anyway, speaking of visions and dreams, well, why don't we just go back to the beginning of the episode and we finally get to see what Helena sees in her dreams slash visions for the first time, for the first time, yeah. We've seen like Damon's kind of visions in the end of season two, uh, which I think isn't Helena in that vision as well. She's she's speaking in in Damon's vision.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Uh we start off the show with her with the gray mare, which it's a symbolizes in Westeros and in the lore death. Um, people were saying that when she opened the bar, whatever the doors to I guess the barn or whatever that was, you could see this sun like beaming into the room, but we never see what she's seeing. Yeah, but we could see her face, and it's not something of like it's not happiness, it's like of she's frightened a little bit, and then she could hear like the echoes of of Renera's voice, and all of a sudden she wakes up. Further along, we see her, we finally see the the scene of her screaming, giving birth, and that's a vision. We I think we we mentioned that earlier in the season. Um, we see it's a boy, I think it's a boy, right? Uh, we don't know because they wrapped up the baby, but we could see teen black soldiers just take the baby right away. We finally get to see Dream Fire, and she looks magnificent, I thought. Um I just never seen I they've done a really good job in having every dragon, I will say having every dragon have his unique look and style. And this is like a very different look because she has kind of it's not is it what is it like horns? Not I don't know if it's horns or not, but like it's a different face, like spikes, and yeah, yeah, like a little spikes, yeah, yeah. Like it looks great. Yeah, she's in the dragon pit. We see like a s a crowd storming in, and she says Jacaris, and then the last one is they have the two kids, Jahara and Jaheris. They're the same age, and they're like in some kind of farm, and all of a sudden, like the dead come. Like you can see like an eclipse, the winter is coming, blah blah blah. What did you um get as a sense of those three um all those visions together?

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Visions. Yeah, okay, so for the Helena vision, I'm glad that you were on the same page and you heard, I guess, what I heard, because she says, you know, uh, I saw a gray um mare, but I saw reviewers online say, Oh, she said that she saw a gray man, and that means she's talking about the the the night king. And I said, Oh, that's such a reach. I was like, she obviously saw a gray horse, and I don't know, so just in case um anyone else uh thought that at least you're not Sedon, but yeah, people did think that she said gray man, but she said a gray horse. So that was the first vision, and I did see the light that was like shining into the the the keep skates as kind of like her trying like being transported almost. Um, and actually when you mentioned the vision of uh the kids, her with the kids and with the chickens, we can't for like leave out the chickens that she's always wanted. Yeah, yeah. She's like in this like Teddy Tubby's place, a big garden, uh big, you know, like heaven, I guess. Field. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

That would be her that would be the place she would want to be and not be bothered with her kids.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Yes. I don't know if this is I don't know what's the truth, I guess. Um, I also said that that was Jaheris and Jahera, her two kids, but um, I don't know if this is official, I don't think it is, but the Game of Thrones unofficial, um, wikia, if you know if you I'm sure you guys are familiar with it. Um, they said that that's Mailer. So I don't know, or are they talking about the baby that she gives birth to? And in this Teletubby-esque place, um, I noticed that when like the storm begins, it starts with an eclipse. Yeah. And then I tried to find if there was any like instance of an eclipse in Game of Thrones in uh like a like George's world. I couldn't find anything. But if anyone finds anything, like please let us know, just because I felt that that might be, you know, it could be like a good use of symbolism in in the story. Um and yeah, and the snow coming, I guess, you know, just symbolizes trouble because that's what it means in winter is coming and the saying winter is coming. Um and the the scene where she gives birth to Maynard and they take the baby away, it's reminiscent of when Rainier gave birth to Joffrey and she had to immediately go meet Alison's and yeah. So and great visions. Oh, and by the way, also when when you said we say Dreamfire, I loved what she's wearing. I think she looks amazing as a dragon rider.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Um, and I'm glad that you think that Dreamfire looks good because I thought that as well. And I went online, and so many people are saying that like she's such an ugly dragon, and I feel so bad for this dragon. Yeah, yeah. Like I see lots of people making fun of her.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

There can be no ugly dragon, no ugly dragon. I mean, sheep's tailor. Yeah, you know what? Bless his little heart. He's a looker, you know. He's not as they can't blame the guy.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Um beauty is subjective, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah, yes. Uh no, the the whole scene. Um, it's uh the vision is basically Helena and she she's seen the looming threat to Westeros, but I think it's all about death. I mean, I think she's seen what's coming. For uh let me go back to Allison. This whole storyline about Allison leaving, I think that's that's another way to add to Helena's, you know, how she'll be become desperate and what she's gonna do without her mother there, being alone, that she can't, she's fragile.

Rhaenyra & Helaena

SPEAKER_01 21:42

When Ranera's talking to her, like I for the first time I wasn't a fan of Ranera. Because I could see like she's bullying Helena, she's treating Helena like some kind of magic eight ball, or like she says she could see visions that she's not can't see it. At the moment, it's not like, oh, let me snap my fingers. Oh, yeah, by the way, Dayman's here. Or Amen's here. Like, that doesn't work that way. Ranera is so desperate for validation, right? She must hear that her reign will be successful. And it's getting to the point that she's becoming paranoid. Instead of worrying about the people, instead of worrying about the rules, she's worrying about whether she wants to hear from she wants to hear validation from a dragon dreamer. Like you're focusing on the wrong thing. But I I love the acting by uh Fia and Emma here. Um, especially when Ranera grabs her arm and you can see uh Ranera's face realizing what she might be becoming. Like, oh what am I doing? Like, you know what I mean? I don't know if we noticed that that look, but she's they're a great actor.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Um I think that's you perfectly summed it up when you said that it's a need for validation. Um, because that's what we see with her in Masari also later on. We've already discussed that scene. So it's just her uh needing that, as you said, and not to link it back, but also funny enough, this is kind of what Aegon needs as well, because that's why he keeps saying, like, Am I a good person, am I a horrible person? It's the same thing with Rinir being like, Am I being a good order? Is this like what I'm supposed to do? Is this is it fatal? You know, like she they both kind of are seeking, I guess, the same type of answers. Um, yeah, I felt that Rinira in this scene was kind of I don't know if I don't know what the word is, but she's almost like crazed. And you know, when someone uh you said magic eight bar, but also I kind of thought of the different scenes, I guess, in movies or cartoons before where you have people trying to get information from like a fortune teller, like tell me what it is, tell me what it is. And it just shows her her desperation. And I I pitied her honestly in the scene a bit and you know, I didn't see her as a buddy, I just saw her as someone that um I guess deep in her heart, she wants to do good and she wants to yeah, she wants to know everything's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Like, yeah, should I bother doing all this if it's not gonna work out? Like that that's what I'm getting a sense of.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

And I I And was it worth all the loss that she experienced as well, her children, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Yes. Uh I like how Helena goes back to, well, you have six dragons, did it alter your demeanor? Or guess she says, you know, how Viserys um decided to become a be alone or not not ride the dragon. He he decided to live a life of uh of not having to do that because she talked about Dreamfire. Um, the reason why uh Viserys stopped flying is because Valerion the Dread just died of old age. Like he he like he uh claimed Valerion, and then I think a year later um Valerion died. I don't know if there's an instance of uh dragon rider losing their dragon and them bonding with another dragon. I know a dragon can bond with somebody else, could have you know a lot of riders, but I've never heard, I haven't looked it up or known. Maybe the Nera says it in the book. Um what sorry, if a dragon can have if a person can claim, I just a person can claim no no if if I have a dragon and my dragon dies, I don't think I can.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

You can't claim another one.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Like so I I don't I think if Viserys if Belerian lived to another 40 years, I think Belerion, I mean Viserys would have been flying Valerion. Uh but anyway, um yeah, great scene with Helena. I mean, I think that's their first real world scene together with uh Helena and I think so.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

The other scene had Addison's in it.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, so she kind of like just had a couple lines, but not like a just 1v1 uh scene back back and forth.

Mysaria in the Throne Room

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, let's move on to well, actually, let's just finish my other annoying scene that I thought was driving me crazy, which was Masaria and the lady, which I can't remember her name. Um she's from the Pleasure House, so we saw her with uh Aegon and Aemon. I think it's season early season, maybe it's season two. I don't remember when, what which season that was. Um she's kind of checking or putting Missaria in her place, like you're wearing a sick silk gown that's worth more than a year, me, whatever what she said working, and you think and you think that you're working for the people, and Missari is going back to, oh yeah, I'm I could do more here than and than I could do outside, and I I don't see her doing anything, you know, other than at that moment I could see her going, well, maybe I can be a queen whisperer, and I'm gonna you know be a proxy, like the lady said. Um, but I don't know, I don't understand what this the point of the scene. And I can I know we're supposed to be here analyzing scenes for our listeners, but I don't really know what the point of that was.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Yeah, I fear you, I fear you. I mean, I was thinking the same thing to myself, and um while we record, I like have the script beside me, so I'm reading it now. And the only, I guess, explanation that I can give is Miss Arya tells her, does it not occur to you that from this position I may help those who have no avenue? Um, and then uh the woman whose name is Sylvie, by the way, she says, What power do you have in truth except to flatter and cajole? Uh that's why you've called me here to look on the trappings so that someone would hold you and all. So what I would can can kind of gather from this, I guess, interaction is just that someone is calling Missaria out because literally what she's doing is what Sylvie is telling her. You know, you're just here to flatter Reneira. That's what we're seeing her do. She's not doing anything else. But I are are they trying to show us that um Missaria isn't even aware of that? Because she says Missaria, she believes that she can help people that I'm doing this, I'm in this position now, I'm going to close the queen, I'm gonna help everybody out, but she's not doing anything. So is it to show us that Missaria isn't aware of what she's like doing, that she's not doing much? And if that was the point of the scene, why? Because it would be more interesting if Missaria was completely aware of her own manipulation. Why are you kind of making it seem like she's unaware of it? Because if she's unaware of it, then the only other explanation we can give is that she's actually attracted to Renera, but that's not and like then she's pursuing a romantic relationship, and then that's it. But no, we see her like manipulate Renera. And there was also a point in this episode when um not this or it was earlier when she was talking to uh Renera after the small council meeting when um Bela and Adam walk in and they say, Oh, they saw sheep seeder with a rival. Yeah, Sarah walks out with Rhenira and um Masaria says, You didn't doubt Damon. Um and he says something like he does these things or something like that, and he tells Rhinira when he sees you lacking. When he sees you lacking, I don't like that that she I mean Renera should have been angry at that. She should have been like, I'm not lacking. Yeah, you know what I mean? I don't know, she's just it just I don't understand why we're weakening everybody, all of these characters, and I'm all for vulnerability, I'm all for you know moments of weakness, but you can't spend an entire season with all of your characters just being diluted to certain elements. George created very multifaceted characters. Why are we focusing on one part of it? I mean, like you, I don't understand. This is my only explanation that I can find of the scene.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

It gets frustrating because now we've come to the last episode and we still haven't gotten to Tumpleton. So now, yeah, you know, all our predictions about God's eye, the second battle of Tumbleton, the dragon pit, the hour of the wolf, all that stuff is gonna have to happen in eight episodes in season four. How are they gonna do that? You know what's gonna happen? I know what's gonna happen. They're gonna minimize all that stuff into like five minutes instead of having an in a special hour just for that last that aftermath that the that I really love in the book. I I we're not gonna get that, and that's gonna really drive me up the wall. But I I don't I don't

Winter Wolves, Lord Ormund, and Ulf

SPEAKER_01 30:18

see anything happening. Uh like with the Winter Wolves, we get into let's get into um the Riverlanders and the Winter Wolves. We've seen them sporadically throughout the season, like moving slowly to their destination. So you're saying it's taking them the whole season to get there, but it took Alicent less than an episode to get to Heronhall.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Um so yeah, we we were so excited. There's so much promotion about the winter wolves. There's you see them in every trailer. They make sure to see you know Roddy the Ruin, and now we'll definitely see them in the last episode. But yeah, that's another thing to be frustrated about. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

You already looking forward to them.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, I mean, like, I don't I don't get it. So anyway, Gwen comes and tells them, hey, we have like 20,000 guys coming, and Orman's like, hey, no, no sweat, man. I still got this ace in the hole, and they're like, What are you talking about? Yeah, so we've realized that Corless is not the ace in the hole. Corless is there, but which is a big change from the the book. We already said that. Um the ace in the hole is olf at the end, which um again, we don't see we don't get any time with them. We just know that he's frustrated a couple times. He gets smacked around, he can't hang out with his buddies. And I just love Orman can see that, and just again, he's a smart guy, he's not a battle-tested commander, but he knows how to manipulate. And he goes, you know what? Uh, what does he want? Um, or what does Ulf say he wants? Oh, honey, he wants to be the Lord of Honey something. I forgot the name of the house. Or the and he goes, that oh, that's nothing. Honey holes, honey holds, yeah. I'm thinking about Driftmark. How about Lord of the Tides? And I go, that's a ruin now. That's the struggle.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah, but Of doesn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, exactly. And you know, that's all he wanted. All all Ronera had to do was manipulate these idiots, yeah. You know, and I I do like the line that that Eamon says in the beginning when he's just Ronera's gonna fail. She has commoners riding her dragons. You know, I I like that line. I that's the best line Eamon had in the in the in the show in the episode. But no, that that whole Ormond thing, again, that's that's been building for the whole season. All this stuff is building to for one last episode. Is this episode gonna be two hours?

SPEAKER_03 32:46

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

And I just wanted to like the fact that we Ulfus face is the last thing we see.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

It's the last thing we see, and but I I think that though we could have ended on a stronger scene, which is what we're gonna end our episode with. Um, I think that his words were a bit chilling when Ormond tells him they will laugh at you no more when they see you as you are, and then Ulf says, No, they will burn. I that was a bit chilling, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

Because we've never seen Ulf, I guess, uh hungry for for for that, for like vengeance for for a battle. But now he has something to fight for, you know. He has no reason to stay on Team Black if you think about it. There's nothing they didn't deliver on his promise, they didn't give him anything he wants, they're limiting his free and fun time. So, and if you put yourself in Ulf's shoes, there's no, even though I agree with with uh Team Blacks, by the way, I think that he's a fool, but he has no reason to stay there, and unfortunately, Team Green's just played it better. And honestly, all of this, when you said like um uh Ormond, like Ormond played him essentially, and um like this is what Team Black should have been doing, and just tell him what he wants. This is what Missaria should be doing. This is what she should be doing. She if she was a worthwhile character, I guess, in season three. Then uh she would have been doing this. And I understand, you know, like the source material, I know what happened, so I know that it's like even that would be a departure from from George's books, but it's just so frustrating.

Alicent and her plot

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Um, and I also have another I know this is completely uh uh like uh not related.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

It's so it's so frustrating is gonna be the title of this episode.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Yeah, it should be as it should be. I because I want to talk about one more frustrating thing that I forgot to talk about in our Heronhall section when we talk about Eamon. Um when Alison just leaves, it's so frustrating because she she could have had a much stronger scene there because okay, she doesn't kill Eamon, but she successfully poisons him. And then you have Eamon like stumbling and going to Alice and being like, Alice, Alice, I need your hyper. And then she just rolls her eyes and says, Idiot. Okay. Wouldn't it have been a far like logically? She was in that room with her son. What if we just saw, which would have been a much stronger scene. Eamon, I guess, getting to that point, even or even like if he was alone, getting to the point where he was half dead or basically dead, or let's say, I guess 80% dead. And then Alison, who has the dagger from the night, like look at him and be like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna finish the job and I'm gonna kill him. But then she walks away being like, I can't do it. He's my son, I can't like slice his throat. I'm just gonna let the poison do its trick and hope for the best, and then bounce, and then Alice walk in. That whole thing would have been such a strong scene to me because at least it adds something, I guess, to Alice, Aymond, and uh Alicent, especially Alice as well. I would have taken that over the scene of Missari, of Renero with Missari, so many other, I guess, moments in this episode. Because I just think it's such a missed opportunity because now she just like half poisons her son and then like runs away. It feels like a I guess like a plateau, like an oversight, like just another oversight in House of the Dragon, where if she just stayed five minutes more or like ten minutes longer.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

And now we're gonna have an Amen who is in more indebted to Alice and more of a puppet. So, yeah, it's a lot of things here. Um I was gonna say, uh, talking about Masaria, I just thought about something and I go, Can you imagine Varus being Master Whispers for Ranera? Anyway, that could be uh another show, or you know, the what-ifs of Renera Targaryen and

The Vale Dragon Fight Fallout

SPEAKER_01 36:20

her reign.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Yeah, and House of the Dragon completed. We should do an episode on that.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Uh, let's get into the veil, because a lot of stuff happens, which um a lot of dragon stuff. Yeah, Damon shows up and we see Lady Jane, who in the novels uh is said to be a woman who never married, never had a man in her life, and then we see her with uh I don't know, like uh paramour next to her. Like it's it's weird to see a grown two grown women sitting or grown two people sitting in a in a throne. It didn't it didn't look right for some reason. Anyway, they don't speak of it, she just gets up and leaves. So that's for us to contemplate. Um is this the first time we hear Damon say please?

SPEAKER_02 37:08

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

I think it might be because she's because Lady Jane's like, I have to tell Ranera. You know, now people have seen this wild dragon, people have seen the writer. I don't want to be complicit. I need to tell Ranera, and he goes, just give me one more day. And she looks at him and he goes, please. Uh the the one thing that that that I clocked, and I know you clocked, is when she says nettles and sheep. Yeah, and she throws in the word nettles, um, which is one of those things that you're supposed to, oh, you're supposed to be like the Leo DiCaprio meme of hey, hey, hey, hey, like nettles, but it's now like pointless, but anyway. Uh he finds uh sheepstealer. I love Caraxis, he just like smacks Sheep Stealer on the head to like get him down to to uh onto the ground. There's a lot of things to take out of the scene. At first I thought, wow, this is gonna be epic. Uh Renera comes with Seasmoke and Sir Cyrax, and you get this like standoff, right? And it was basically a three-on-one. And and by the end, instead of me being happy, or I I felt if it was painful to watch because you don't want to see dragons be killed. There was a moment where we were like, Well, they're not gonna kill Cyrax here because the sheep stealers went crazy on him or on her, and then all of a sudden, anyway, go ahead. I mean, I I don't know. I at first I thought it was an awesome scene, and then I I slept on it, and I woke up and I go, I'm thinking about the totality of what happened and what the aftermath, and I thought it was pointless.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

I agree for the most part. I mean, I I watched it like early in the morning, because obviously I don't watch that at night, so I'm not in the US, but I was so scared that I would wake someone up with my screams because Cyrux just kept getting attacked, and it's like it stressed me out. So like it was a stressful sort of my day, honestly, that scene. Um, and yeah, I do I guess I do see it as a bit, like a bit pointless. I think for this, they're just doing it to deliver on like the special effects and dragon battles, that House of the Dragon promises, because that's what kind of is the setting point of House of the Dragons. That's oh, we have dragons. This is different than Game of Thrones, because Game of Thrones was just generic. But this is like we have more dragons, and we have dragon battles. You're gonna see, you know, how that uh plays a role. So I understand that that's like the setting point, and that's why they kind of had to do it. Maybe they want some sorts of uh visual effects nominations at the Emmys as well, maybe. So I I guess that's their reason, but like I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

The reason why I get fr again, frustrated is the word. Let me look up the let me get my thesaurus and find another word for frustrated. Um it's because we we start the season with poor Raina, no dragon, she's dragonless, now she's dragonless again. And what are we getting? What are the c what are the consequences of like I at the at one point you have Raina just drop to her knees, and I think she was ready to accept her fate. Like, I okay, I'm I'm ready. Yeah, she totally was. She's just killed me. Like, I I I need to just this will be my debt pay to Ranera for having Jace killed. And I just I can't keep hearing about Sheep Stealer and Raina and Jace. Jace got himself killed. He blocked us.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Yeah, I thought the same.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And he that was his own decision to leave. And the fact that Ranera is so hell-bent on not accepting the fact that her own son, Trapped her, took off. He's the one that got himself killed. Instead of saying having a talk with Damon and go, hey, get Raina, let's see if we could train Sheep Stealer, let's see what we can do. We could have this other dragon with you know what I mean, like turn it around. Instead of just she's blinded by this vengeance to get the killer of her son. But then we get to the back to King's Landing and it's just like, okay, just put her in a cell. Like I'm I'm leaving. Not and not even turn it around. No, she didn't say that. What is she saying?

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Oh, yeah. What I want to say is this is a note that I made when they get back to to the keep, Renera says find her a room. She doesn't even say find her a cell. So I mean, it just shows that you know, I though I've been angry at Renera in this episode, I feel like it at least shows that that Renera wasn't like so far, and like she was willing to show I uh to show mercy, I guess, to Raina a little bit. She didn't say cell. That's something that type clocked. She says room, which is better.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Why didn't she check on Cyrax?

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Oh, I know that's annoyed me too.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Anyway, that's annoyed me too. Back back to the battle. Adam just, I mean, he he was like a gendry. He just starts sprinting and gets Raina, like within two seconds, he got he gets her. You know, that's his you know, half niece. He got he has to get her. Why didn't Sheep Stealer protect Raina there? You know, fire on Adam. I don't know. Uh uh no, it was bone chilling. I don't know. It was great to see at first. What I got out of this fight is that Cyrax is not built to for battle. I don't think she's ever been a fight. Small, yeah, yeah, it's very small, and the way that it took basically, well, she sea smoke and Cyrax together couldn't take down Sheep Stealer, I think. Sheep Stealer was gonna handle their business, and then we get to see why Caracas is the best, probably the best dragon besides Vagar. You can see what it proves that Karaxis and Damon have the best bond when it comes to yeah, yeah. They know how to fight, they know each other's it's it's like they're one, right? And you can see what a well-trained dragon can do. The way Damon talks to Caracas, the way he can command her, the way she fights back. I mean, once he says kill the kill him, like it was it was done for, and it was he's injured, he can't fly. You know, why not just go for the kill shot?

SPEAKER_03 43:17

I mean, I don't know. I don't know, like when you said now, like, why did uh sheepseater not defend Raina? It's like one of those things with House of the Dragon that's unfortunately we're left to question we have no explanation for, and it just feels like like you know, an an unanswered question. And I don't know, we don't need more of this. We don't need more.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

No, no, no, I I felt bad again. I like I rewatched the scene before we started recording, and I go, I I kind of get upset because like this could have been a totally different situation with having Sheep Stealer by her side. I don't know. I mean but we don't get to see Raina at all with Sheep Stealer. Why not have a give us a sequence with them two together? Does she sleep with him? Is she snuggled with him? Like Have a sequence or scenes with her trying to train him, and all of a sudden, boom, she's done. She has no dragon again. Did they leave Sheep Stealer alive on purpose? Because Raina's gonna go get him again. I don't know. I I don't know. You could totally tell that they spend a lot of money on the scene because it looks kind of good at times, a little CGI-ish, but why not save all this money and give us the fish feed, the battle of honeywine, all those other battles? Give us something. And why is Damon on a horse in the next episode? I see the previews.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Why is he on a horse? Oh, I haven't seen that.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Why, why, why? Uh do we did we like anything about this episode? Uh okay, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I don't know. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

You uh you predicted

Love Triangle

SPEAKER_01 44:47

threesome, I would say threesome, the love triangle from Yeah, I hate that I predicted it. Yeah, and I my son's like, what's what's going on there? And I go, Well, I don't really know. I said, Well, I told him about the book, like Alan's supposed to be I didn't I didn't say nothing. I said, Well, they kiss in the book, but now they had this chemistry between Adam and Bayla, and now it's just like really are we gonna have this? Who's who's gonna be the daddy? You're gonna have a boy.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Yeah, yes, it's just gonna like I I said this in the last episode of our podcast. I'm so frustrated by this. I knew they were gonna do this. I knew because they need unnecessary drama, and this is unnecessary drama, yeah. You know, and like why? There's no reason, but like I they just want the unnecessary drama. That's the explanation.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Yeah, that's the explanation, and then she sees her sister and she's like, Oh, we need to move on. Like, don't worry about it. I have a you know, don't worry about Jace. I've moved on from Jace. I I I have two guys, we're you know, we're good. Here, we're we're sisters. Like, that's what I got out of that. I see a lot of pushback and a lot of negativity towards Raina storyline from a lot of creators, and I I agree with it. I think it was again a a total miss opportunity. Like, unless something's gonna happen in the last episode that's gonna make it worthwhile, I don't see.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Like I I was from the beginning, I was like on the opposite uh of the opposite opinion, and I still really don't mind them excluding nettles because for me, I just think it's fine. For me personally, maybe there's like someone can explain to me, send me a DM if you feel so strongly about this, or Tony, if you want to say something, if you feel so strongly that Nettles should have been there, because for me, I think it's it's kinda okay that for me that she's not there.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

The only reason why I would have liked nettles in the show is that maybe have one they could have maybe changed the lore a little bit and go, This is a non-Targarian Valerian person that could claim a dragon, and that's something that George does right. Like, we're gonna have this ordinary person. He's and with nettles, she did have control of Sheep Stealer, like she knew how to control him.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Let's get these little scenes out of the way.

Council Meeting moments

SPEAKER_01 47:05

I know the the council meetings are kind of pointless now, but that one little scene with Mandalori saying, Um, why am I the scapegoat for all the troubles? Yeah, and I just started, I just started the job. Why am I getting all this hate? Uh that was funny. Um, Sabbath uh complaining and Ranera just out of frustration, just go and just just take Karen Hall. I don't really care. You're not giving me any counsel in in the first place, so just go. Take whatever men you have and get rid of Damon. If he's not dead, just kill you know what I mean. Like, I don't I don't have I don't have time for this nonsense. I I just

Aegon And Sunfyre Steal The Show

SPEAKER_01 47:41

asked you if there's anything we liked about the episode. And let me just put you this scene because I I feel like this performance by Tom Glenn Carney. I mean, we I've hated Aegon since this guy's come. I think he's a spoiled brat, he's been vicious. Remember about all the women he traumatized when he was young, the the fighting pits with the kids. We we can you know, and then in season two, they try to make him funny, relatable, and in this season, like they stripped everything from him, like he was nothing, like they wanted us to feel bad for him, and I go, I'm not gonna fall for it. F this dude, and then he comes out. I respected the fact that he goes, I'm not gonna flee anymore, I'm gonna make my stand here. And if I die, I die. If I'm gonna die a king, and they could bury me here. And this little speech it was great, but I love the fact that he thought his speech was so moving that they were leaving. Like, oh my gosh. The king, we need to go. Like, he thought it was his words that was making them them scared and pull away. But anyway, let's hear this performance.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Behold me now. I am Egg und Targaryen! Viserys is true, the sixth king of the Angels! And the Ruiner! And the first man! I was anointed by the High Septon in the light of the seven, and it is in their light that I stand before you now! Strike me down and the stranger will take retribution! The warrior's sword will be judgment upon you! Yes! Yes, cowards! You might well retreat! For now you see me as I truly am dreadful in vengeance, righteous and glorious.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

We can't see like HBO is not allowing you to see the the like we're recording. So I they have it, they have it in a way that we can't actually see the actual visuals, so we can only hear it, and now I'm just listening and I'm hearing every little groan from Sunfire, and it's epic.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

It is, it is. Um You said it best, you know. Um we uh like Aegon is a disliked character, we're not fond of him. All of that aside, I think this is uh his moment in the entire show so far, yes, where he's able to shine. Like it's his moment. So at least he got that. I think that's most of our characters got their moment already. And this is Aegon. So at least it's it's like good to see. It's it's very well done, even though you know we're not rooting for him. We do feel at least that it's a very chilling, powerful scene, and we're glad to have a scene, I guess, that is chilling and powerful, even though we're not particularly fond of the character and we don't agree with what he does and everything. It's just at least it's a cool scene to see, you know. Um and yeah, I I I do think it's funny, you know, when when he thinks that it's him, so like that comedic element that's thrown in there as well. It's very well done. I saw someone say, Oh, Laris is gonna be so disappointed when he finds out that he left before this.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah. Like he did all the work and Thailand is reaping the rewards. Uh I do remember I mentioned um I think a few episodes ago where I honestly thought Sunfire was gonna come out and smoke all the guys from Rooks Rest who have been making Aegon and Laris do all the like grunt work. Uh, but no, I I think this I love the scene. I love that it is a scene of the episode, should have been the last scene. Um, yeah, Tom Carney, magnificent. Sunfire looks beautiful, deformities and all. Love the fact that the pet looks like the owner, same scar, same everything from the side. Um for a split second, I was like Team Green. Um, I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Just because everything looks great, and um, I like this scene right here, and hopefully uh there is a character getting a payoff after six episodes of wandering, you know, Westeros and being torn down. Be someone, yeah, somebody. Kind of a um second coronation. Um, I'm

Ratings, Finale Hopes, And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_01 53:39

just gonna go out and say this because I think we are um about to give reveal our ratings. This is probably the weakest penultimate episode of Game of Well, actually, let me think about season eight. With that being all said, uh, I think this is the weakest penultimate episode, and I'm really trying really hard to think about episode five of season eight of Game of Thrones, the Bells. A lot going on there. I know that uh IMDB has that at 5.9. I don't think this episode is a 5.9. I think that 5.9 was out of 10 years of waiting, and we get this, and it's just like, you know what, we're gonna preview bomb this. And I think we took it out on that episode. That episode had a lot of good visually. Um, I mean, there's a lot of click aimball, Aria, all that stuff inside was uh worth points. This episode right here, um I don't know, gonna be my lowest uh rating for a Host of the Dragon episode. Let me let me hear yours first. Let me go uh penultimate for season three.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

I'd give it maybe a six point five. I I think for me that's kinda though. I can either be very generous or I can either be very like stingy, I guess, with my ratings. But I think that six point five is right right now. I see it as fair. Just because I think it's so it was, I think, the first episode in season three, where though there are a couple of episodes that I guess frustrated me, this is one where it's I actually got really annoyed. Like I was watching it and was like huffing and puffing in this episode. I was like a pfft, so many moments that could have been much better than they actually were in this episode. Moments we didn't need. Uh they should have, you know, I I I think I would have liked to see other moments from the book brought forward. They uh I guess disappointing for me.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, right now, um, I added up our scores. I look last episode I talked about looking up our scores for all the previous episodes and then kind of adding it up. So before this 6.5, you you had an average score of 8.3 for the season. For the first six episodes, I had an 8.1. I'm gonna go with 6.5 as well because again, I love that sungfire scene, and this is just out of annoyance. Uh, I'm I'm I'm looking up uh other words to say other than frustrated. I'm hoping that we end on a high note. Now I'm kind of scared of what's gonna happen for season four. If they have to tie a lot of loose ends that need to be tied. That's that, I guess, for our cover of the Finultimate episode. It felt like we were uh ranting and raving, but I mean we gotta be honest, and and we're not gonna sugarcoat our our feelings about it. Like we're not gonna say, oh, this is so marvelous, and and uh everything's great and peachy. Uh IMDB has it at 8.5, which I'm pretty shocked. I thought this was gonna be low. Yeah for some reason. Maybe they just people love the dragon fight. That that's why they're giving it a high a high rating. Thank you all for listening to the 92nd episode of this podcast. Crazy that we're closing to our 100th, and that seems crazy and impossible that that's even gonna happen. So we'll figure out what we're gonna do for that. To stay updated with our podcast, please follow us on Instagram at dancing with underscore dragons. You could find the link to our bio in our on our page. You could find your preferred podcast platform. Make sure to follow, say, subscribe, give us a like, rating, all that good stuff. For our next episode, we'll be discussing the finale of season three, and hopefully we'll be in a better uh hopefully we'll have better attitudes and uh and we'll be hopefully it's a better episode. I don't think our attitude see, we'll be singing the praises and making hopefully we'll be eating crow, but I don't think that'll be happening. But uh other than that, thank you all again for listening to the podcast. Uh see you next time. Peace out.