The Young Wolf: Rise and Fall of Robb Stark

For the 74th episode of the podcast, we trace Robb Stark’s rise from dutiful heir to fallen king, mapping how honor, loyalty, and love collided with power and changed the war. The story moves from early victories to political fractures, culminating in the Red Wedding and the lesson it carved into the North.

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open: Oaths And Crowns
• 1:24 Welcome And Episode Setup
• 2:41 Robb’s Childhood And Core Traits
• 10:44 From Heir To Acting Lord
• 13:53 Early War Moves And Capturing Jaime
• 15:59 Ned’s Death And Robb’s Coronation Debate
• 19:40 The release of Jaime Lannister
• 24:49 Theon's Betrayal
• 27:51 Jeyne Westerling & Talisa
• 33:53 Was the Frey pact even necessary?
• 37:18 Alliances Lost: Tyrells, Stannis, Renly
• 45:16 The execution of Lord Karstark
• 51:36 Jon Snow the heir of Winterfell?
• 53:32 Robb's blunders and confidence on Edmure
• 58:33 Legacy of Robb Stark
• 1:03:18 Episode outro

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we bowed to. And now the dragons again. There! Sick's the only king I mean to bend my knee to. The king of the north.

SPEAKER_01: 0:26

I'll have peace on those terms. They can keep their red castle. And their iron chair, too. The king in the north.

SPEAKER_02: 0:38

Am I your brother? Now and always. Now and always. My sword is yours in victory and defeat. From this day until my last day. The king of the north.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33

My name is Minua and I'm here with my co-host Tony, and we're here today with a very special character-focused episode. It's an episode we've teased and promised for a while now, ever since our Game of Thrones season 3 recap, but we had to delay it till now since we had to talk about the first trader we got for the new Thrones spin-off show and I to the Seven Kingdoms. That was our previous episode, so be sure to check that out if you haven't already. So we're all up to date and know what to expect when we get that series in January. But for now, we're ready to dive deep into an essential and beloved Game of Thrones character and his downfall, Rob Stark. Tony, are you ready for this episode? We've been prepping for it for quite a while now.

SPEAKER_00: 2:06

We have, and I feel like I'm not fully prepped, which is weird. Like there's so much information I want to get to. And yeah, we'll we'll we'll start from the beginning. Yeah, and in the show, Rob is a young tyke with uh John and his brothers and sisters. And in in the book, for those who haven't read it, Rob is only 14 years old when this story begins. When you look at it, it's pretty crazy to think that all all the actually all the characters are much younger than they are in the show. You know, you have even Daenerys is 14. We actually actually don't really see a lot of Rob in his character in that first episode. We see him actually in the dinner with Yeah, the the Stark Dinner. The start dinner um welcoming the king, and we see him having fun with Arya, throwing food to Sansa's face. So that's to me, he's still a kid at heart. He's laughing at a food fight, you know. So then uh we get to see him again, I think when he is saying bye to John. So we don't get to see much of who he is as a as a person until he is thrust into leadership when Ned leaves, and then he is the acting lord of Winterfell.

SPEAKER_03: 3:22

Okay, okay, hold on a bit, Tony, because I think you just wanted to dive deep into everything we know about Rob and talk about like what we see on the show. But there's actually like a lot of information we know from his backstory, um, like his childhood and how he grew up, just like a little bit, some stuff that we can gather from the books or like supporting materials that are all considered canon, even though we don't really see it in the show. You know, as you said, we see him at 14, we don't see any of his like formative childhood years, but there's a lot of information that like can get us to warm up to Rob a little bit more and just add to the context of who he is. They it's just it's just nice to know, you know. Rob was born River Run, near the end of Robert's Rebellion, with the aid of Maester Lewin. He was there way back when he was always with the Starks. Um, he is his father's son character, valuing justice and honor above all. He was always like acting like the heir, you know what I mean? Like he never uh rebelled against that or denied that or anything like that. And he was always caring for his siblings and setting a good example for them to follow, being the typical responsible older brother. Um, everyone looked up to him, you know. Uh Ariel wants to be as strong as he was. You mentioned that scene in the dinner, but Sansa and Bran admired his bravery all the time. That's what that's what was noted. And he was always caring towards Bran. And he was, of course, close friends with uh John and the Starks were Dion. There's no mention of his relationship with the youngest, Rikon, but of course, we know that Rob would never leave anyone out. He's all about that Ohana life. Um, and uh it's noted that Rob and John were always very close. That's something that we can see clearly in the show as well, like the results of the childhood bond that they formed. Um, because of course they are like the same age. They trained together ever since they were old enough to walk. They played together, they they played pranks on everyone, the guards, their siblings. They even hid in the crypts and scared Bran. And Bran ended up crying back to Rob. Like he went to Rob for comfort, even though Rob wasn't on the prank, just shows how close they were and how he saw Rob as like that comforting older brother rather than, you know, like the mean older brother that buddied him. No, he he knew that Rob was like gonna be there for him, even though he he was the one that pranked him. So that was always like the image that he gave off. He was the loving, responsible older brother, and I think that's why like many of us love him and warm up to him. Because if you think about it, even though he seems like a stereotypical heir, there's no one else in George's world that's like that. You know what I mean? Like all the other heirs or uh like young lordlings, they're not like Rob, you know, Tyrion isn't like that, uh Jamie isn't like that, like no one is, like even the the women, Sansa's is not the same, you know what I mean, like as the lady of the house, like the the young lady. She's not the same. Cersei obviously isn't the same, uh Danny isn't the same. Like he seems like a very stri stereotypical prince character in fiction, but in George's world, it's just him. And I think that uh it's a very interesting like uh archetype for George to use because you know the typical Rob Stark prince is always gonna be like, you know, the hero, the prince, like in a way, the type of prince that Sansa dreams about, you know what I mean? Like that's the kind of like the ideal man, you know, the ideal hero. But obviously, like because this is George's world, there's no happy ending for this heroic character. I mean, he's very protagonist material, uh, similar to John.

SPEAKER_00: 6:46

Do you think that Rob is, as you say, like not as other lords' kids or princely because he had a stable parents who actually cared for him and looked out for him and loved him? And like not Lannisters didn't love their kids. You think Tywin, when he says, Oh, I taught Jamie had I don't believe that for one second. Uh the Lannisters didn't really have their mother. Uh she, you know, she died in childbirth. So I maybe Cersei and Jamie had their mom for a little bit, but not for their whole life. And then Daenerys obviously was an orphan for her life.

SPEAKER_04: 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:24

Um, so to have a father like Ned is like one in a million in this world.

SPEAKER_03: 7:32

That's true. And usually in fiction, if you'd see a guy like our character that's as good as Ned, they would usually already be dead. Do you know what's I mean? And then the the they wouldn't be present in the story for us to see how they would influence them and the rest of the world. So um I think that yeah, in a way, it does it can be considered a result of having the most quote unquote normal family in George's world. But at the same time, like I don't know why, but uh for me, I feel like Rob turned out that way, but Sansa kind of didn't turn out to be the stereotypical lady, like she did. But at the same time, like she's not the caring older sister. She hates Aria. She's not to Arya what Rob is to his younger brothers, you know what I mean? And you could it could be said no, it's because Aria's Reberis, but at the same time, like I think that Rob and Sansa are are in a way a typical lord and a typical lady, but he's more like I guess a st of a stereotype than she is. He's more uh I don't want to say he's he's more good, you know what I mean? Because I I it's not that I'm not saying Sansa is bad, but you know, Sansa does have that in her rob, you don't you won't see him hating Bran for being rebellious if Bran were as rebellious as Arya, you know, and he doesn't see Arya herself as wrong for not being ladylike. He he he encourages that, you know, the same way that they would have encouraged uh Liana and that Ned would have uh that encouraged it. You know what I mean? Like uh they're quite different, so I think that he's the most uh like stereotypical kind of very I'm gonna bring in a different franchise here, but very typical Gryffindor, you know what I mean? Like a very typical noble, good guy, the same way his father is, but more like uh when he when you see it's in a younger prince type of character, you kind of root for him in a different way than seeing him as like a the fatherly figure of Ned. So uh typical hero in a way, but yeah, we know how his story ends, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00: 9:26

Yeah, the one thing when I when I re-watch the show or reread the books is I always have that wishful thinking that the story's gonna be different, and then I go, damn you, George, why didn't you give us Rob and John together? So wish we could have seen them together in battle. And to you know, man, like of course we can't have that because John needs to be at the wall, blah blah blah blah blah. Whatever. I'm just like just just for seeing uh Kit Harrington and Richard Madden, you can feel that second episode when they say goodbye, like they hug each other, and you could feel like these they're real, like they're brothers, they they say they're happy, but they're like real brothers, and that that hug always gets me because like that's it. They're never gonna see each other, and I just wish that oh, just escape.

SPEAKER_03: 10:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's what I was on that.

SPEAKER_00: 10:20

Yeah, but anyway, my whole point of that was to say that I wish we could have gotten their relationship more on screen, but you know, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 10:28

Yeah, I I wish so as well. And I think that is a very core Rob scene when he says goodbye to Rob, because you do see how he appreciated John the same way that's kind of Arya did, and he you get the sense that he is a good guy that didn't really look down on on John or blame him.

SPEAKER_00: 10:44

We can see right away that he he falls into that leadership role. It it doesn't take him by surprise. Because even before he's the Lord of Winterfell, he's the Lord of Winterfell, but even when Catelyn is still in Winterfell, she's not there because she's with Bran 24-7. And she remember, she's she doesn't want to deal with anything. And so for that whole month and whatever, you know, Rob is already taking care of all the meetings, he's taking care of all the ins and outs of all the little things that have to go in running this this this you know northern, vast northern not I won't say kingdom, but you know I mean like land of people he has to he has to worry about. So he was he was already kind of getting that in the training before she actually left.

SPEAKER_03: 11:32

Yeah, definitely. It's said that like when he was young, before he reached the age of 14, obviously because that's when we meet him, he was as you said, always attending the meetings. He was prepared uh by the time that he had to step into that role. He wasn't just like like faced with that responsibility out of nowhere. He saw his father do uh you know what he did and and embodied that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:55

So I think that's one of the reasons why some people were kind of warmed up to him later on, which is that's kind and that's kind of what we can talk about next, which is him uh coming into his own as Rob Stark King in the North when Ned is beheaded because you know we have I think episode four of the show, season one, when Tyrion returns to Winterfell when he's going back to King's Landing. You know, we have that suspicion of the Lannisters being at fault on Bran's fault, like they have something to do with it. And you can see Rob's face when he's talking. He has he's so dismissive of Tyrion, you know, like he has such an attitude, and then when he can see that Tyrion has did something good for Bran, because he created that uh for for Bran to ride a horse, yeah, like the saddle thing, the saddle contraption, and then say, Hey, you know, you take it to your person, they'll make this for you. And then he's like, Oh well, you did a kindness to my brother, you can stay. And and you know, Tyrion is such a so waiting, he's I I know when I'm not wanted, you know, I'll just go to whatever I'm going there. So we had a few episodes of Rob just holding the fort, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03: 13:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 13:06

We had him confronting the wildlings when they wanted to kill Bran. Um, and then I think the episode later is when they get the letter from Sansa saying that you need to come to King's Landing and swear fealty to the you know King Joffrey, and that's when he calls his first big move as Lord of Winterfell is to call the banners. Yeah, after that letter, I mean it's right away you get to Rob and he is going into a battle. You know, it's already like right away. There's no there's no like uh pussyfooting around, it's just straight to let's go, you know, because then you have Tywin saying, Oh, we have two thousand or twenty thousand Stark men here, two thousand, you know, they get confused, and the reason why is because Rob went in full force to attack Jamie's crew in the Whispering Woods and get Jamie or capture Jamie, uh, which leads to a great speech by Rob. And if you go to our coverage of that episode, you will you'll hear Minwa describe Rob Stark as majestic. And that was uh two years ago when I'm back.

SPEAKER_03: 14:25

He did look majestic. What else do you want me to say?

SPEAKER_00: 14:29

I'm I'm gonna I agree with you. The hair is glistening, the the the sun is being you know, his he's on top of this rock, you know, this amazing speech. He just captured Jamie, he's on top of the world. You know, what else? I mean, I agree with you. Not Sam, I'm saying I agree with you. Okay, good. Obviously, that's a big turning point in the whole landscape of the war. Uh, this was before the execution of Ned, mind you. So they have Rob. I mean, they have Jamie, so maybe they're like, well, maybe we can, you know, Tion's like, just cut cut his head off right away. It's just like so. Like, shut up. Why are you here? Anyway, uh, they could have they had the bargaining chip, you know. That was their chip to try to get Ned or the girls, or you know, Arya and Sansa. And we'd all know what happens in that episode. You know, we have Ned's execution. Yeah, and that that's when you see that the following episode is when Richard Madden does a great job and showing his anger and his grief and his pain of losing his father when he's chopping the tree, and he's like, I'm gonna kill them all. And and you know, yeah, it's like, no, we gotta get the girls, and then we'll kill them all.

SPEAKER_04: 15:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

So that kind of uh starts the the ball, you know, rolling, I guess. We can move on to one one of the the moments I think was a mistake and might have been uh attributed to this future downfall is him being the clear king of the north. And I know you said you had uh an imposing view. I I I think that it was a rash dis decision. You have all these northern lords, they're all drunk, you know, they're like you know, well, you know, they're just shouting stuff out, you know, like you know, okay. The dragons of the moment, you know, you know, only time we bowed down was to the dragons, and you know, they're dead, who the care, you know, we're gonna only the king of the north. And I just think it wasn't a politically savvy move to just say I'm the king. In hindsight, Rob, that's not what what was Rob's motive. His motivation was to get his father back, and he could have cared less about being the king of the north. I think it's hard too, because if he would have said, Okay, guys, come on, calm down. We don't want to do that, maybe he would have lost those guys. He would have lost those alliance. So I I guess he was put in uh was a rock and a hard place. But I think that moment was key because if he's not king of the north, if he would have just sought out alliances instead of declaring himself I'm K, I'm king. I I don't know. What what do you think?

SPEAKER_03: 17:24

Okay, so before we started recording, you said, Yeah, I'm gonna talk about the king Herald being king of the north and how that was a mistake, and I obviously reacted to that, as you said. I was like, What? Why do you call that a mistake? And you're like, oh, I'll talk about it and stuff. And I understand your your what I understand what you're trying to say and why that could be a mistake. But again, I think the point that you made to counter it was kind of along the lines of what I was gonna defend the choice with, by saying that like he it was the what the people called him. If he uh did like denied that, it wouldn't have been uh a good thing for his own followers. You know, like if you're gonna be uh kind of handed this mantle by these people that supported you, it's not really right for you to be like, actually, can you just like not call me this, can you call me that? Like it's it's it's wouldn't have uh like made Rob as strong as he was. Like I think when they called him King in the North, it kind of gave some uh uh power to his uh like presence and what he was trying to do, even though he wasn't trying to uh um make the north independent um like initially, uh I think it's fine that they called him the king in the north because it shows uh to like the south, to King's Landing and like the crown that they're they don't recognize uh like they're not they're they only follow uh their like lord in the north. You know what I mean? Like if if he's upset at you, we're upset at you too. He's our king, not you. You know what I mean? Like that's it's fine that they called him the king in the north. What's wrong was that uh Rob didn't stick kind of to the original plan, which is just to focus on bringing justice. They went all over the place. And I think that after that, like they had some wins, but then it was unfortunately like a series of losses and poor decisions that that of course didn't just work didn't work in his favor and wasn't really good for him. And that's why this episode is called the downfall of Rob Stark, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00: 19:17

We'll get to every decision. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that was Yeah, I think the peak was him capturing Jamie. I think that was the the him at the top of the mountain, and it kind of went downhill from there. Uh slowly, like he was at the top very fast, and then slowly, slowly, slowly he saw himself sliding down. So I think that the first major, I guess, decision, I can't remember if it be it comes first. I should have looked at this. Uh the first decision he made that I think was uh boneheaded was sending Theon Greyjoy to the Iron Islands. So I don't know if that's first or Catelyn releasing Jamie. I think Theon leaving was first, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 20:04

Um yeah, I uh Theon leaving was let me make sure. Oh, they freed Jamie first.

SPEAKER_00: 20:10

Oh, they did?

SPEAKER_03: 20:11

Yeah, Rob captures Jamie at the Battle of Whispering Wood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Theon happens later.

SPEAKER_00: 20:18

So Jamie is first.

SPEAKER_03: 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:21

Okay. Okay, so I stand corrected. Jamie was released first. Obviously, that had nothing to do with Rob.

SPEAKER_04: 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:30

That was unfortunately his mother, which if any other person would have released Jamie, they would have been executed for treason. Can't kill his mother. But I just thought of this. Would Joffrey has executed Cersei if she released Sansa and Arya?

SPEAKER_03: 20:53

Oh my god. I don't know actually. Like, I don't I think Cersei could like Joffrey would attempt to do it, but Cersei would do something to get out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I I I I Joffrey would make that decision, but Cersei wouldn't end up dying at like that, I think. Like she I I yeah, she no, in a way. Like, but Joffrey's not Rob, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 21:17

But you had to think about it.

SPEAKER_03: 21:19

I thought about it for a second, yeah, because I was like, yeah, Joffrey would give that command, but I don't see Cersei dying.

SPEAKER_00: 21:28

Which is funny because the these northern lords are so upset. Can you imagine if he would have killed chopped Catelyn's head off for treason? Like, what would they have said? And it's one of those we we could talk about that decision in a Catelyn episode. Like, what was she thinking? Like, she doesn't trust these Lannisters for one bit, but you think that them getting Jamie back is gonna go, oh, here you go. Here you go, your daughters. Yeah, it's just it's such a ridiculous decision. I mean, it makes her a great story because then that starts Jamie's arc. That was one of the moments that led to his cult downfall because you had so much dissension in the ranks from that. You had the Carstarks who happen. I mean, Jamie kills two of the Lord Carstarks' sons, and he wants revenge, he wants him to be killed. And again, in a young wolf's mind, like, I can't kill Jamie. He uh my sisters are gonna be dead. Like, he he doesn't see the the aftermath, or he doesn't see the future of like what what's gonna happen or the consequences of not having Jamie killed. Because when you think about it, like they would have been killed anyway, they didn't realize that they were gonna escape King's Landing, you know. But I think they should have obviously they should have let Karstark get his revenge, in my opinion. In your mind, they're dead anyway. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03: 22:56

Like in Kat's mind.

SPEAKER_00: 22:58

You just gotta let it go. I mean that's hard, it's easy to say, right? But I think you because when Karstark leaves, that's more than 50% of his his support is gone.

SPEAKER_03: 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

And right right then and there, when then they're gone, then they're desperate to go. Oh, now instead of going south, now with our with our minimal forces, let's go, you know, we'll we'll talk about this later, but we'll let's go to uh Castle Rock. You know what I mean? Like like if he had the full might of his full forces from the beginning, he's not doing that.

SPEAKER_03: 23:33

I don't want to talk about like cat and make it a cat moment, or like I don't want to talk too much about it because this is a Rob-focused episode, but like I can't blame her at the same time for doing that, you know. Like Yeah, I mean like as a mom, like trying to defend your sister as much as you can. But at the same time, like I think that I hate to say it because it sounds so bad, but uh obviously we you made you made the Joffrey point, so it makes this point better. But I don't think it's a bad thing that like Rob had to imprison Kat. He had to like kind of punish her to show some uh loyalty, I guess, to the Carstark. You know what I mean? Like he had to do that to his own mother, which can be questionable without the context. He had to do that, and then but if they killed Jamie, can you imagine like how how bad that would have been as well? Like I don't know if I would have wanted that if he just lets Carstark do do that, honesty. Like I killing Carstark was wrong, but I don't think it would have helped Jamie, helped Rob to kill to have Jamie killed. He was he's too valuable a hostage to kill him.

SPEAKER_00: 24:36

Another we're all over the place here, but uh when it gets to the Carstark thing, um I had an issue with it because let the man have his revenge. Oh so that's it, Theon. Him sending him to the Iron Island to treat with his father, who he hasn't seen in what 10 years, and was obviously one of the biggest mistakes. Didn't realize he made he trusts Theon. He has been grow grown up with Theon. Catelyn saying, no, no, no, please don't trust him. Please, these people are are despicable, please don't do it. That's the one decision that gets me crazed, is him sending Dion to the Iron Islands. Because he could have sent anybody else as an envoy. He could have sent one of the northern lords with with a you know with an entourage and be like, hey, this is Rob's terms. Not don't don't send one person. Actually, he sent more than people in the books, but in the show it's just Theon. And then what do you expect? Dion is not strong-willed or or smart. Uh because then then think what look at the domino effect. He he gets shamed by his father, yeah, and then all of a sudden, oh, I need to betray my brother and take Winzerfeld. So now Rob has to think about my brothers are dead because of my dumb decision. Now I have to what do I do? Do I have to go back north? Go back south, and then you have Ruth Bolton coming in. No, no, no, you can't go back north. I'll send my back. You know, it's just Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:12

I know. I mean, about Theon, you know, give considering what we already talked, considering what we already said about Rob and how he is very loving, you know, he saw Theon so like positively, so much, so much so like a brother, like similar to John. That of course I don't blame him for uh sending Theon away because he in his mind he's one of us, he's not one of them anymore. You know what I mean? Like he didn't see the the Theon as a greyjoy, he saw him as a Stark. Whereas Katlyn, you know, saw like knew knows everything about House Greyjoy. She she she has the full picture. But Rob was like, no, this is my brother. You know, this is uh he's he's he's as close to me as John is, as Bran is. Like, there's no difference. So I don't blame him, but I can't like nobody can deny that this was a huge, huge mistake that Rob did. And that's like we can't we can't blame him for it. And he it's not uh it's not because he's not uh smart, I think it's just because he's too uh caring in a way. I'm like I'm painting him such a positive light, like it's too much of a compliment, I think. But uh he uh he is very warm and loving, he rah and that's where this decision came from. It's from his good his good heart rather than uh him him uh being like not being intelligent, you know, like because that it's an emotion, I think like he thought the better of the answer. That's why he did that, rather than thinking this was an unwise decision and weighing the pros and cons. He thought he m made the decision with like his heart, but not his mind, and all the facts that he knew or like the facts that he uh could know about How's Grid Ranger. Um but then you mentioned Tedissa, so let's move on to um what comes like that next step. That's a huge, huge, huge, huge mistake that Rob did. And I don't think that anyone can deny. I think that once this happened, uh anyone and everyone can tell that like Rob made a horrible move and that's breaking the marriage pact that he made to house free.

SPEAKER_00: 28:12

Um well, let me just uh if it's okay with you, I'm gonna give you the book side of the portrayal of the phrase. Um and it starts with you know, in the show he meets Telissa on the field of battle, she's tending to the wounded. Um in the book, uh Rob was injured in a battle called the storm of or the storming of the craig. Uh, he was hit in the shoulder, I think, by an arrow. And he was attended by Lady Jane Westerling, who is the daughter of the Lord Gowen Westerling. Um so he was uh recovering from that wound when he heard the news about Bran and Rickon being killed. Obviously, he's distraught, can't believe his two little brothers are dead. Then you have Lady Jane comforting him, and that moment of sorrow leads to her losing her what they call maidenhead, right? Yeah, and Rob is determined to preserve her honor, and he takes her for a wife without delay, like immediately. We you have to marry you. We had sex once. Let's go. I am going to get up. I can't, my arm. I we gotta get married because your honor and my honor. So it wasn't that he fell in love as he did in the show with Telissa, and the book is more out of duty because he he didn't want to have her be whatchamacallit, um it would have been bad for her, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously, this sudden marriage provokes an outrage from the Freys who are with uh Rob. They have Frey soldiers with them. Uh Black Walder threatens to kill Jane. Before he leaves. And then Oliver Frey expresses his he wants to stay as Rob Squire. Black Waller says, no, you have to go back to the twins. So here's the thing that would have been kind of nice to see. I don't know if he would have said Majestic, but in the book, Rob shaves his beard and lets his hair grow long. That would have been kind of a weird thing. I can't see Richard Madden with the long hair.

SPEAKER_03: 30:28

Yeah, no, ew. I didn't even pay attention to that. I probably blocked that out. That's no. No.

SPEAKER_00: 30:36

So uh after that, uh he abandons the castle he was at, and he joins his mother in River Run with his new bride, Lady Jane, and his mother. You know, Catelyn is horrified. How can you do this? You're breaking the oath. And it was always funny that Catelyn. I remember we talked about this in one of the shows that we for season two. Catelyn tells Rob, you shouldn't align yourself with House Tyrell and married Marjorie Tyrell to get that alliance, and which was not in the show, but anyway. That is how he met Jane Westerling. I don't know the real reason why they would change the story because it doesn't make really make a difference. Like if it's Jane Westerling or Celissa. The only thing is that Jane Westerling is from a house. I don't know if they wanted to, oh, if we do Jane Westerling, we gotta then have her father in the show, we gotta go there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 31:34

Like that makes really no difference, but they probably said, oh, you know what? Like it's going to be um like just another house, you know what I mean? Because then you have another house in play. Like if Rob's going to marry someone from uh a house, shouldn't that house then do something? You know what I mean? Because obviously uh Jane isn't killed in the in the book, yeah, but she's Telissa's killed in in in the show. So then I think then that probably would have opened up like a canon of worms for fans then who haven't read the books to talk about Jane and her family. Like, oh, was she in on it? Where's her family? How do they come into the story? So then I think in order to just get rid of all that um possible discourse, they just made it some rando. You know what I mean? Like not listen to some rando, but like not someone from a house, not someone that could be connected to the dancers and certainly. No, it's just like to avoid any possible connections or theories that would have painted her in a bad light or or you know, set up traps for them, kind of, you know what I mean, because of how fans love to theorize. They were like, let's just make it someone that's I hate to use this word because it's so bad, but it's like a disposable character, you know. She she's like she comes from from nowhere. She's not to call Valentin, but you know what I'm saying, but like she's a complete stranger, not someone that they know, and they don't really need to remember her name later on. It's just no one ever gonna say why did Talissa's family not come in, you know what I'm saying? Because we're we you know, like they're not relevant to the Westerosi world.

SPEAKER_00: 33:04

So I was gonna say for those who want to know where Jane is in the books, I think she's in River Run. She was captured by Jamie, if I remember. Yeah, you got into that part yet? I think so, yeah. Let the folks know where you're at, actually, for Feast for Crows.

SPEAKER_03: 33:21

I'm almost done with the Feast for Crows, you guys. I can't wait to talk about it. I'm almost done. Um I'm here. I remember I I one of the things that motivated me to finish it was or the two things was I had a dream once that George would be on our podcast and would ask me why I haven't finished reading the books yet. So I was like, okay, next day I popped open the book and I started reading it. Also, so I can prove to Lewis, our our mutual friend, and someone who's been a frequent guest on our podcast, he keeps saying, Well, Min was never gonna finish reading the books. I'm on my way, I'm almost done. So I have a question for you though. Um, you know, we talked about how it was a big mistake marrying Telissa or Jane because it breaks his his marriage pact to House Frei, but and you know, of course, of course that like not doesn't paint him in a good light, it leads to the red wedding, yada yada. But um at the same time, now thinking about because my memory is like I have drew like my memory is short a little bit, so I can't remember the exact situation completely, but do you think that it was completely, completely, completely necessary for Rob to make that marriage pack in the first place? Because I think maybe they could have gotten around it. And uh honestly, I I think we talked about this before. It's I wouldn't put it past Walder Frey to betray them, even though he had married one of his daughters. If the Lannisters came with their big like bag of coin and were willing to deal with Walder Frey, I could easily see him betraying uh uh Rob. Because uh there was a scene as well where he was he, you know, he said something about his kid or his daughter dying, something like that. So was it necessary? I know that they needed to pass and go like pass the twins in order to make it south.

SPEAKER_00: 35:01

I think it was, but then the fact that you needed to make a pact was for me disrespectful in the first place. He's your he's your lord. Shouldn't you just listen to him and say, okay, go through? Like why do you think why do I have to give you any why do I have to give you anything?

SPEAKER_03: 35:19

Yeah, like it was completely unnecessary. So I think that even though we say the marriage and breaking the oath was like breaking the pact was a mistake, it can be seen that making it in the first place was a mistake was more like the original mistake, you know, because yeah, like threaten him, you know, and he's like who cares, you know? If you have the whole north behind you except for this one guy, deal with him in some way, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 35:45

Don't don't Crossing the Twins was just it's like essentially the only route to get to River Run. Going through an alternate route would have cost them time and probably a lot of lives. Going through going straight on through a bridge and having to go all the way around like mountains and and water. And think about it, yeah, it makes more sense. He had to reach River Run before you know Tywin got there. He didn't want Tywin to get there. So if he would have taken the long way, who knows if Tywin sacks River Run. And then he needed the phrase army, but still, I I would have just said, I'm giving you this, but I'm not marrying none of your daughters, you know, take her or leave it. I'm gonna come straight through. Having Catelyn go and and and seek terms was probably a mistake. I think Rob should have gone him himself and been like, This is what I want. So tell me to my face. It's one of those things that he needed, he didn't really have a Sir Roderick was there, obviously, but still it wasn't like a he needed somebody in the outside. He sees Sir Roderick kind of like a father figure, he's been with him forever. He needed somebody like I I was saying the blackfish to come from the outside, who's a proven, you know, warrior strategist, and he would have been like, Okay, this is he I would have sent the blackfish to talk to Walder Frey. Yeah, you saw how Walder was talking to Catelyn, like he he doesn't respect her. No, no one else has all you know Rob seeking out alliances. He did send Catelyn to talk with Ren Lee. And then Renly and she happened to get there at the time where Renly and Stannis were going off on each other. But again, you have Stannis being hard-headed, he's not gonna give any ground, and Renly, who's who's cosplaying a king and has you know the full might of the Tyrell uh army, which is huge, is the biggest army, the most uh provisions and and money. So he's feeling himself, he thinks he's kingly and all that. Uh so I mean it's just bad luck on Rob's part that he couldn't, and again, I think it would have worked better Rob Gwynn himself to talk to these people instead of sending his mother. Look, I'm sending my mom. That doesn't seem in this world of macho.

SPEAKER_03: 38:11

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00: 38:14

I'm gonna send my mommy to talk with you. If it if Rob would have gone with his full forces, hey, I'm just here to talk. Yes, they declare me the king of the north, but low-key, I don't care about that. Let's just join forces. Yeah, you can take the iron throne, I'll be up there, I'm I'll be chilling up there in the cold, and let's just join forces. If we all join forces, we could get this done in Amazon Prime one day.

SPEAKER_03: 38:40

Yeah, literally, literally. Like, even if he didn't ally with Renley, I think that Stannis would have made for a really good ally for Rob. Just because like Stannis is was Ned's pick, so in a way he would be following his father's wishes. So I think that's something that would uh that's Stannis would appreciate as well because that's what Ned stood behind. Uh Stannis getting the throne over Joffrey. And at the same time, I think that though the marriage thing probably would have set uh Stannis off, I don't know how we would accept that or how he would deal with that, but he could have reasoned with Rob. I think that alliance really could have worked and they could have made it happen. And they could have easily, with the forces of the north and everything that Stannis had, you know, by like by the Blackwater Bay uh incidents, they could have easily taken the kingdom and like reach, like like revamped the whole thing. All of King's Daniel would have been different. They were so close anyways. So with the Sarks, they would have been undefeated.

SPEAKER_00: 39:40

Well, the Stannis thing is just like he he didn't want to give an inch, no compromise whatsoever. If he would have just listened to again, he's listening to everybody's listening to the wrong people. They have Stannis listening to the red, you know, Melisandra, and then you have Rob, you know, listening to all these other people. Just needed one person to be like, look, what is the ultimate objective? Is to get the Lannisters out of the throne. Like, that's what we need to focus on. Who cares who's sitting on the throne? You know what I mean? Let's let's work this out. Like and well, Stannis with this brother, like, look, you know, there's no love there, even though they're brothers. It's like, I don't care for you. But still, he could have faked it. Look, brother, you know, we we haven't grown up together, but you're my blood, and we need to figure this out. Um, let's just let's just oust the Atlannisters and then we'll see rock, paper, scissor who sits and throne, or whatever. But no, they had to fight each other. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 40:42

When you said like Stannis doesn't move an inch, like I think with Rob, he didn't really have had to compromise for anything because I don't think Rob would have come like asked for the North for that's not what Rob wanted initially. So I think I think that if Rob acted uh on that alliance earlier on, he wouldn't have uh really had to give up much because he's gonna be like, I'm I want to support you and I want to bring them to justice. I want what you want. Like I I'm I'm going behind you. I'm not the leader of this. I I want you to be king over them. Like I you know what I mean? Like he would have been funny just backing Stannis. He wouldn't have he wouldn't have asked Stannis for anything. So with those two forces, sure they would have faced some resistance from Randy, but I think if they had that show of force in front of Randy, Randley's army wasn't like sure he had the Tyrells, but I honestly think that they could have switched in an instance, seeing the Starks and all of Stannis's men. They could have switched. I don't I I'm not, I'm just saying they could have. And uh Radley, Randy could have gotten taken out anyways by Mena Sandra, and everyone would have moved to Rob. They got the entire kingdom, they just they would get it in a second. So it's not like Rob had to give anything up. He would literally just go to Stannis and be like, I support you, I'm behind you. How do we give you the throne? If he just did that, why would Stannis object? And that's why having having like a fighter, too, but he he has no reason to object, honestly. Like to strongly object to Rob.

SPEAKER_00: 42:08

And that's why having somebody, somebody like the Blackfish with you from day one would have helped so much with negotiations because he would have just gone with the Tyrells. But look, this is our plan. We don't care two shits about the throne. We just want to get Ned back, we want to get Sansa Naria back. We want revenge on these people. You want to come along? It'll make it easier for you. Uh backing the Tyrells, and then you know, I I don't know. It's one of those wish you could put that in the simulation and see, okay, AI, put it in the room. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03: 42:42

I know, I know, because now I can't help but wonder, you know, like I feel I feel so strongly about this now, like probably more than I ever did, just because it's I don't know, it's frustrating me that that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_00: 42:54

And he could have gone to them like separately and said, Look, I've talked to your brother, this is what I told him. I'm gonna go down to King's Landing no matter what. If you want to join me, join me because that then I would help you have the northerners with combined with your forces. This is gonna be easy. One of them would have budged.

SPEAKER_03: 43:12

Randley would have, Randy would have. I think he could have. He's a bit like um uh arrogant, but I think that he was weak, you know. He was weak, though he he he could I could see him resisting. I could also see him being convinced, especially if someone went up to Randley and told him, Look, your brother has no ears, he has no sons, you are next in line as long as he doesn't have a son. And it didn't seem like Santa was was like actively focusing on having an ear. So that's been short-sighted. So he could have just been like, Yeah, okay, instead of thinking, Oh, but he could get a boy in the future, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 43:48

Like he was he could be convinced, so and they could and they could have used the xenophobia of he has his form running with him, and she's and she's you know, and she believed the Lord of the Light is this wicked religion, and she's poisoning him. And do you really want that? And you know what I mean? Like, they could have used all that of like okay, and and because you think about it, uh Renley had his forces were what maybe three times as big as uh Stannis's. Because I think they had a hundred thousand plus when you think about it.

SPEAKER_03: 44:21

Um they were a lot, but they were weak. Like, I don't I wouldn't consider them strong.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

Yeah, I mean they were a hundred thousand, but I think if you if they fought twenty-five thousand strong northerners, they would have lost.

SPEAKER_03: 44:34

Yeah, yes, that's what I'm trying to say. They're they're they're lots and quantity, but not for they're not formidable force, they're just quantity over quantity.

SPEAKER_00: 44:41

What did uh Catelyn call them? The Knights of Summer or something like that?

SPEAKER_03: 44:45

They're the yeah, the rain, not the rainbow guard. That's what they're actually card. The knights of summer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:49

Because they had seen the real war and winter and all that.

SPEAKER_03: 44:52

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The nights of summer.

SPEAKER_00: 44:54

The what-ifs, you know, that's that's one of those what ifs of Rob. I mean, he he hit his plan got derailed so much, like he was on a train to King's Landing, and he's like, Okay, we need to stop here. Okay, let's turn back. Okay, let's get back on the train, derail, okay. Let's fix the train. Boom, another. That was basically his life. Uh, but anyway, all right, so let's go to one or he executes um Carstart, which again, that's probably the final blow uh when it comes to his forces because it he's depleted by I don't know, 50%. Now, Car Stark's the want of revenge for Jamie killing his son his two sons. Um, and it and it's building from middle of the season, beginning of season two. You already have the car starks like chirping at Rob's leadership in the camp, like he's uh undermining Rob all the way because he's like, Well, he's not a real leader. He's looking at his mother's here, blah blah blah. He he keeps you get to season three, right? They capture these uh Lannister nobodies, they're basically the fifth cousin of the second cousin, like like nothing. If Cersei and they would have been like, Who? Like, who cares? I don't care about that. This is where Rob Stark doesn't see the big picture. I think it in hindsight, he should have just said, you know what? Just let this guy have his justice. If this is the way he's gonna get his justice, whatever. Because in the big in the long run, in the big picture, I need him. And him killing two kids, I know they're kids, Tommen included, the guy who played Tommen.

SPEAKER_04: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:37

Um, just let it be. Yeah, it's frustrating because you you you look at that and you go, it's not politically savvy, and that's just him being too young, not knowing the consequences and w in the real world of him um executing one of his bannermen, his his biggest bannermen, his the car starks who are who are so joined with the Starks in their lineage and their family, you know, in the history is you know, Stark and Karstark.

SPEAKER_03: 47:33

What you just touched on there, that's a like big point of Rob's uh like the themes, or I guess like the what of what Rob embodies in the story, because he kind of tried to embody Ned in a post-Ned world. Do you know what I mean? And I'd could it be argued then that Ned's uh like beheading showed that you can't really survive in this world and that Rob was I don't want to say like wrong, but like you can't win by being a Ned. You know what I mean? It's it's of course not something that I uh advocate for, but I'm just saying that that's kind of what Rob makes you question, you know what I mean? Like, yes, he's he's right, but like look what happened, like look what happened to him. Like, and it is it can be argued that, like, yeah, he's a good character, but like this is you would rather like you know what that that quote like what is it, like um the dark knight, like would you rather die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain? Yeah, like it Rob kind of makes you think of that as well, because he still dies as a as a good guy because he's stuck by most of his morals. Like again, I think like the the marriage is the only exception. It makes you question that, which I think is interesting. Like, is it true that nice guy's finished last? Should he have done this? Should he have done that? Should he have stuck to his morals because it benefited him, but it also didn't, because he got the respect of everyone by proving that he was Ned's son, but at the same time being so Ned's son and and having that uh car start mistake. I don't know, I I don't have a clear answer for that. I just like that Rob makes you question that because again, it is it does bring up the like how he is the stereotypical princess, princeling type of character, but like a in a very in a world that doesn't suit that, you know. It's not like he has a different side to him, because Jamie kind of gives off that uh impression at face value. Like if you just see the drawing of of Jamie or something, that's what you'd think he is. You know, that's a joke that he's like the Prince Charming from Shrek. But the second you watch him, you know, that everybody in the world knows that though Jamie looks like that, he's not actually like that. Whereas Rob is that, he like he is that in and out. Yeah, so it makes you wonder like, yeah, this isn't a fairy tale fantasy world. He's he's a fairy tale prince, but it doesn't work in this world.

SPEAKER_00: 49:45

In this fantasy world, I think uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 49:47

I just like that Rob I don't have a straight answer. I just like that Rob makes us question these things. That's that's what I have to say.

SPEAKER_00: 49:53

I think in a world where there's no war or conflict, you can be a Ned in the North, and people are gonna respect you. He didn't lose Rob was strong. It's just and I don't know if he was weak-minded when it comes to war battle plans or whatever. I'm just thinking about strategy uh of trusting the honor system. That that's one of those things like he needed to figure out like to keep his alliances intact, you gotta think politically, and you have to delay your personal emotions until the war is done. And I think if he had done so, it it might have he it might have been a more stable. It's just so funny. It's just like if he would have had the the wit and mind of Tyrion, you know, with the honor, like he to what's the word? Um to to switch it on and off. Okay, I'm gonna this is the time to be honorable. I'm gonna switch it off because this is war. Him sticking with his guns and and executing Karstark because uh he betrayed because Karstark betrayed uh uh Rob and and not listening to him or defying his orders. Again, I think he should have just kept he should have said, you know what, we're good. Is your is your revenge done here? Like uh are you satisfied? What else do you need to to to call your your thirst of of justice just because you want to get this done and I need you and we we need to move forward here. So actually, I had a question because there is a theory about a will that Rob wrote.

SPEAKER_03: 51:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 51:41

You know that theory?

SPEAKER_03: 51:43

No.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

That is said upon um Rob signs a will before his death, legitimizing Jon Snow and naming him the heir to the north.

SPEAKER_03: 51:53

Oh, what? Where is this where where does this theory stem from?

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

I don't know. I thought it was book-based. I uh maybe I'm just thinking wrong. I'm just that's a theory of fan theory. Like I said, I haven't read the book in a long time. Uh I said if if if the will survives is currently in the hands of the blackfish or possibly others. It could be used later to justify John's claim to rule the north or even to unite the north under John if the realm fractures again. And if Rob was the king of the North, he could have just legitimized John anyway, if he would have joined them.

SPEAKER_03: 52:29

Anyway, that that's one of those um theories that's floating out there that I guess like the reason why the reason why is because he was under the assumption that obviously Brandon Rickon were dead, and uh he would assume that Sansa and Arya, you know, like are are like missing in action, no one knows where they are. Um they were like considered dead as well. Because just because no one knew their fate, they were thought to be like dead or in prison. So he was like, you know what? I wouldn't want anyone in the north other than Jon Snow. So that makes sense. Uh I Googled it briefly, and the sentences I'm seeing is from uh Reddit. Someone says Rob's will is a document he made shortly before the Red Wedding. We don't actually see it, but Rob calls witnesses, which is customary when signing a will, right after suggesting legitimizing John and making him his heir. The documents could be vice and securing John's position as king of the earth. So I don't think we get confirmation that he actually signed a will, but seems like it. I I I missed it, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00: 53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 53:30

I I uh on that book.

SPEAKER_00: 53:32

You know, we when we talk about his downfall, we we're saying, well, this person did this, this like, but he did make a few decisions like you know, marrying Talissa slash Jane, uh sending Theon. Actually, he did a lot. Uh and then in the in the in the show, his his last, I guess, boneheaded idea was to go to Casterly Rock and or to Lannisport, um, which I mean you think about Lannisport is heavily guarded. I mean, it has a lot of troops there, and to waste time, and you look at the map where the twins are, where River Run is, and then having to go all the way west to Casterly Rock, what just like it still is it's as annoying as Tyrion telling Daenerys we need to go to Casterly Rock. Why? Yeah, it's on the other side of the country. King's Landing is on the east. Why are we going all the way west?

SPEAKER_03: 54:37

Yeah. Yeah, I I mean it's something that I I didn't like really pick up as like something Rob was doing for a while. Like I I didn't fixate on it when you know during my other rewatches of the show, like way back when I all those other times, I didn't really think about it for some reason. Like I don't know why I just didn't like I didn't focus on it, but during this rewatch, when we were just watching uh season three for our podcast and doing the the episode by episode recaps, I was just like, why on earth are they talking about this? Because it's it makes no sense and it's so frustrating, it's not their original plan. This was what like one of Rob's biggest mistakes. There was no reason for them to do that. He it was such a waste of time, doesn't it doesn't make any sense, there's no logic behind it. Why? Just I can't believe that that was like an actual thing that they had, Rob, think about.

SPEAKER_00: 55:35

Yeah, and then we get to uh the phrase going to River Run and them brokering a marriage deal with uh Edmir, which is like, well, that's not the one they really wanted, but I guess he's better than nothing, and that's why they go to the twins to go to uh this wedding. Well, it's funny. Okay, so now looking at the map, I'm wrong. River Run is south of the twins, right? So if if uh John or John Rob was in River Run, right? Because they had to go to the funeral of Kat's father, forgot his name. Um, Lord something, something, uh Tully. That means they had to have gone north, then they went all the way north back to the twins for this wedding, and then they would have gone all the way back south. Like, man, those those soldiers would have been like, Really, bro? Where are we going? Like, make up your mind.

SPEAKER_03: 56:32

We mentioned Rob trusting the wrong people with certain tasks. And there's actually another instance of it in the show that I talked about a lot during our season three recap and just in general. He instructs Edmure to attack the Lannister forces, help relieve King's Landing. But Edmure acted too slowly, and that allowed Lannister forces to retreat. And when they retreated, they made it back in time to King's Landing to help aid the Battle of Blackwater and win against Stannis. So basically, if Rob sent someone more capable than Edmure, it's kind of an indirect butterfly effect. If he sent someone else and they handled that, they handled that like skirmish with the mountain and didn't allow the dinosaur forces to retreat back into King's Landing, then Stannis would have easily taken over King's Landing at the Battle of Blackwater base. So it's an indirect butterfly effect, but it just shows that Rob kind of doesn't have the best intuition when thrusting certain people with certain tasks, because you know, he sent Theon to the Pike and he sent Edmir to do this critical task that led to the Battle of Blackwater going into the dancer's fear rather than Stannis, and Stannis winning would have been better for him, obviously. So it's very unfortunate that this is another uh, I guess, thing we can add to Rob's mistakes, even though it's kind of indirect. Um who knew that there was like this tiny little butterfly effect in Game of Thrones? I don't think I ever realized it before. We covered it in the show. We covered this um this arc. And of course, the Anistra's winning the Battle of the Blackwater leads to them staying in power, which obviously leads to what? The Red Wedding and them taking out the Starks. Rob also didn't just trust Edmure with with that task, he didn't just trust Theon with that task, he also really trusted Rus Bolton. And this was another unfortunate instance where he trusted the wrong person because Rus Bolton was a fake ally, pretended that he was he was like a double agent, pretended that he was with the Starx, but really he was with the Nancers this entire time. We talked about the Red Wedding in depth in our Red Wedding episode that we did not too long ago, covering the episode and breaking it down. But um, obviously, like this is the end for Rob. This is his death, this is the death of like hope for the North. It means a lot to the story overall, it means a lot to um like the characters in Game of Thrones have suffered a ripple effect in like in the universe and off-screen. It it like re-emphasizes to us, the audience, that no one is safe and that this is the most brutal on-screen world we've ever seen. Um and makes us wonder then, like how the Starks would ever be united and if that could ever happen, because then it just feels like we we're rooting for them more, you know what I mean? Like we we feel like we can't like there's nothing anchoring the Starks anymore. Like brands all the way over, north of the wall. Arya's like lost in the riverlands and going off to Bravos, and Sansa's like being moved around, you know, Cersei with Cersei in King's Landing and then with Littlefinger, and just she's uh she's going through it and then she's off on the north, and it's horrible. So it just feels like there's no hope for the Starks, and it's a very it's a sad ending for a character that stood for so much. And as I said, like it makes us question if Ned's being you you give the right answer as well, like if being a Ned or worked in a post Ned world, and I think that uh it showed that in a time of stability, like political stability you could be a Ned and and like live a stable life, but considering the forces at play and how they were, it just shows that you can't you can't really uh live by that clean uh uh code of conduct if you want if you were to stay in power, you know, like you can't I think with Rob's death, the North loses its king, it loses his unity and independence, and then the seeds of um I guess vengeance are planted in Arya and Sansa because you know they're never the same after that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:34

Also for the realm his death strengthens the the Lannisters temporarily. But for us, I mean we we see that Rob's story and his end um shows us that honor without um I guess being cunning is fatal. Like you can't be honorable 1000% of the time. You have to figure out a way um navigate this world that's not is that's not the world that you grew up in. He does he's never had to deal with that. And you know he's he's not remembered as a fool but it's just a tragic well what is it idealist who who wanted to fight for justice in this unjust world and and this unjust world kills him.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:22

Yeah there was a quote that I I don't know who it's not from the show but I saw somebody I wish I had the the name it said Rob Stark won every battle but lost the war not because he was weak but because he believed the world was as noble as he was yeah that's that's true.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:41

I have nothing to add to that so true I think that's like a problem right like a lot of the characters I guess that don't make it they they think that their enemies think the way that they think rather than um trying to get into their enemy's mind. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:57

Like they they would they assume that there's another um there there's a moment in the show that's very famous where Ruth Bolton right before plunging the the knife into Rob's heart saying the Lannisters sent their regards and it's a small detail that's changed from the book because in the book he says Jamie Lannister sends his regards which is key because Catelyn hears that part that's Ruth saying Jamie Lannister which is the reason why when she becomes Lady Stoneheart her mission is to seek out Jamie Lannister and kill him. So for her to say Lannister I I guess in hindsight it should have been the tip off that there wasn't going to be a leading stoneheart in the show true true I guess last word I have is that you know ultimately we've talked about Rob this whole time and he inherited his father's honor but not Ned's caution would have been much more cautious. He fought I mean he fought with valor he won all his battles that he actually fought in um he inspired devotion from all the northerners yet again he didn't have that political cunning to survive the the Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:18

And I think that's it for the downfall of Rob Sark. Rob's story is one of honor and tragedy just like his father he carried the hopes of the North only to be undone by the very values that made him great. Stan here minds us that honor and loyalty can be both a gift and a curse in this world. We really enjoy preparing for this character focused episode we've done like one I think in the past if I'm not mistaken on the Mad King we'd love to do some more uh deep dives into characters and and the histories of West Rosen and the universe of a song of ice and fire. Let us know what you'd like to see from us. You can reach out to us on Instagram at dancing with underscore dragons send us a message anytime to let us know what you want to hear from us. Follow us to be up to date with all the news of our podcast and all the news you have to know about George's world of a song of ice and fire on screen and in the books. Be sure to add and download our episodes on your preferred listening platforms and give us a rating and review or comment as well if you get the chance. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Dancing with Dragons