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Valar Morghulis
Dancing with Dragons
The Red Wedding
For the 70th episode of Dancing with Dragons podcast, Minwa & Tony unfortunately have to revisit the penultimate episode of season 3. Arguably one of television's most shocking moments…the "The Rains of Castamere," better known as the Red Wedding episode.
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Your Grace, you're great. I feel I've been remiss in my duties. I've given you meat and wine and music, but I haven't shown you the hospitality you deserve. My king has married and I owe my new queen a wedding gift.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire universe. I'm Inua and I'm here today with my co-host, tony, and in this episode we're continuing our rewatch of Game of Thrones, season 3. And today, unfortunately, we're finally here. We're covering Episode 9, the Reigns of Castamere, also known as the Red Wedding episode. We have a lot to get into and we're all looking forward to it, or are anxiously awaiting our coverage, I guess, of the Red Wedding and remembering it all. But firstly, we just want to share some Westerosi news that we have from George's world. I guess that we have from George's world, I guess George R R Martin will actually be attending New York Comic Con on October 9th to introduce HBO's Game of Thrones spinoff, a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. There will be a panel on the show. George will be there, joined by showrunner Ira Parker and the show's stars Peter Clafly, who plays Dunk and Dexter, saul, and Cilla Blaise Egg. There's also a new photo of George on set of the show, or on set of the show. We'll be sure to share that on our Instagram at dancingwithunderscoredragons, in case you haven't seen it, and we just wanted to share that quick little update, since now we all have an estimate as to when we'll be getting updates on Eyes of the Seven Kingdoms. We're kind of left in the dark after the show was delayed. It was supposed to have premiered already, or it was supposed to premiere this fall, but it was delayed to 2026. But now we know get an update, which is going to be in October. So look forward to then for anything new from the world of A Song of Ice and Fire. And in the meantime let's recap the show and let's discuss the Red Wedding.
Speaker 2:Now the episode is known as the Red Wedding but, as I mentioned, the episode is actually titled the Reigns of Castamere. The episode is named after the song the Reigns of Castamere, which is the unofficial anthem of House Lannister and Tywin Lannister. It's like their in-world theme song, kind of not the official one on the soundtrack, of course and the song actually refers to the destruction of House Rain of Castamere after the rebellion against House Lannister. The song was heard in previous episodes, notably Blackwater and Dark Wings and Dark Words, and its backstory was explained in the previous episode, second Sons. We didn't note that in the previous episode, so we weren't like oh, they're talking about the reigns of Castamere, this is all. This is the title of the next episode and this is what the Red Wedding's all about, which is kind of funny. The episode premiered on June 2nd 2013 on HBO. It was written by David Benioff and Davey Weiss and directed by of the season, the last two episodes of season five and the first two episodes of season eight.
Speaker 3:So he directed the best two episodes of season eight.
Speaker 2:Exactly Now. We all know what's going to happen in this episode, but let's talk about the official premise of the episode. So here, rob presents himself to Walder Frey, edmure meets his bride, jon faces a harsh test, bran discovers a new gift, dario and Jorah debate and House Frey joins with House Tully. King's Landing and all of its associated characters and storylines do not appear in this episode at all. This makes it the first episode not to even have a single scene in King's Landing and it's the first episode of the series that doesn't feature a single Lannister. It's kind of like I needed a break from them, honestly, but they're there in spirit, unfortunately. So I was kind of dreading getting to this episode. I'll be honest, tony, like I have fun recording this podcast with you, I have fun watching the show with you, like rewatching it and discussing it with you you know regularly but I was dreading this moment, in all honesty, and my rewatch of the episode honestly was tough and I'm wondering how you found it.
Speaker 3:Honestly, revisiting the Red Wedding still hits like a gut punch and even though we know it's coming, it doesn't soften the blow. If anything, it makes it worse. You're watching the slow build of tension and you're seeing this fake warmth, the music creeping in and then it just explodes into chaos. And I mentioned to you before the recording that you know the episode. I think it's 52 minutes long and we don't get to the scene until like minute 46. So literally like the last four five minutes of the show is the chaos of the violence, the going back and forth from the dining hall to Aria, back and forth. That was all five minutes, but it felt like an eternity for those who are following for the first time.
Speaker 3:It's going. You don't know what's happening. At first you're obviously you're shocked, and then it's going back and forth. You don't know what's happening with Arya. But you know what? I have a plethora of notes to go through and I think you have the same, because you're the note queen. We'll leave this for the last bit of the episode because there's so much to cover.
Speaker 2:So let's just start with Daenerys, because her scenes were short and we'll just go from there there and then we'll give the listeners a little slow build up too. So just because it is a significant event for her kind of, but it's just we're so focused on what's going to happen that we just want to see everything related to the Red Wedding. So every time they switched back to Essos and Dany's story, I just felt a bit like okay, like maybe this could have waited for one more episode. But that's fine, it's fine. I'm never going to complain about seeing Dany.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that this, these scenes should have been in the next episode. I felt like this episode should have been focused just on Starks, just on Jon, bran, rickon, robb and Arya. That's it. No, sansa, she's at King's Landing, but I think even going to visit Sam for that one-minute scene felt, you know what. Let's stick to the twins beyond the wall with John and Bran, or actually south of the wall. They're not beyond anymore. So, yeah, I think that Dany scenes didn't fit. I mean, it's cool to see. Obviously I don't mind seeing her, but I think, since the next episode is a big one for her, uh, I think it would have worked a little bit better. Just add a few minutes to that finale and I think it would have flowed better.
Speaker 2:That's the word I was trying to say um, because everything that's happened to danny's storyline in this episode as well, it kind of happens off screen. We see like a bit of tension between dario and jorah and they're kind of like talking about yunkai and how to win I guess not win over the city, but I guess how to conquer it and defeat them and take over the city. For Dany and I honestly don't have much to say. They successfully do it, even though it was like a tough challenge for them. And Dany's leveling up, I guess, in her side quest of ruling over Slaver's Bay and stuff. So I don't like calling it a side quest, but it's the closest thing I can do. Her main goal is obviously to get to Westeros and she needed to do these things, which is also not really so. I just felt like okay, fine, you know. Like yeah, okay, not just whatever, but she did it. Okay, let's move on. You know what I mean. I love her, but like okay, she checked the box yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:She is decisive. It's a clever military move, but it's all handled off screen.
Speaker 2:I love Dani. I just want to get her storyline in this episode over with, because the others were just I don't know. They overshadowed Dani in this episode. Sorry, like Dani's action when it happens off screen it's, it's not waiting. Come on, you know what I mean. Like I can't. I can't call it a danny episode, even if I tried so yeah, that's why we're gonna move on.
Speaker 3:We're gonna go to sam and gilly really quick, not even like a 60 minute. 60 minute, 60 second. Uh, he impresses gilly with the book learning of history. How do you know this like? So you read symbols and you know what? Are you a wizard? And it took me back to when he said did he say I want to be a wizard in season one?
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 3:Oh my god they're on the top of the wall. He's on top of the wall, john, and something. He goes. I just I wanted to be a wizard, uh, so I I started laughing, uh, but she, she's more impressed by seeing the wall. Anyway, that, that was pretty much it yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to to like say that. I just googled that really fast and it's that uh quote is accurate. John was opening up to sam and says I always wanted to be a ranger and john and then sam says I always wants to be a wizard it's really funny and I think you can see him kind of like chuck it at that, not because Gilly's naive, but because like, yeah, like that's kind of, I think.
Speaker 2:I think he felt seen I don't know, I don't know over, like over, analyze it, but like that was, that was cute, that was a cute moment. And something to note as well is that Gilly makes a quick remark. She says something like oh, my dad always said that if anyone that sees the wall instantly dies. So I think that's just interesting to know that the Wildlings and Craster's people, everyone north of the wall, they have their own weird suspicions that don't really make sense about the wall and everything south. You know, the same way that the Southerners, I guess, see the north of the wall people a certain way and what they do and everything above the wall is like they see it in a certain way, like as a big danger. So do the northern or seats of the southerners.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, um, so let's move on from salmon glee, because that's uh it's, and I think we should just like move slightly like north or south, I guess, or like around that area and talk about bran and john, because their storylines like almost in this episode, which is insane. I completely forgot about this. So, talking about Bran first of all, I just want to start there. I think it's easier.
Speaker 3:And you know, what's even crazier is that it happens to Mor Stark. So you had Arya so close to her brother and her mother and, yeah, I completely forgot about that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wrote it down Like this was the episode of almost reunions Almost there was almost there, cause even like John and and and Sam, they're not too far apart. If you think about it geographically, they're in the same area. So you have John and Bran and Rakan, so like him and his siblings, or like cousins, I guess, and then you have John and sam and gilly as well, being you know like in the same vicinity still. So it's kind of insane. I'll say one last thing.
Speaker 3:One last thing about sam, or anybody in this world, is that you have to have an incredible memory because, like for me, if I was in this world and I would reading all these books, I would forget every little detail. And he's like, oh yeah, I know because I read this book. And how long did you read that book? How do you still know every little? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like yeah, you gotta have that good memory to like I would be like, yeah, maybe it's in this, this castle, I don't know. Like let me get my notes out. Oh, oh, my battery's gone. I can't check it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I mean, I guess then you'd have like a different profession.
Speaker 2:That's why Sam's like a maester, right, because he has that mind, he knows he has that like memory bank. But yeah, moving on to Bran, who also, like has some mind powers, I guess, revealed or utilized in this episode. So before I get to that, we see that Bran and his group, trojan and Rakan and co, are in the area of Westeros called the Gift, and this was actually something we discussed when we talked about Dancing with Dragons, when we talked about House of the Dragon, I think which is like the Gift is the stretch of land south of the Wall which was gifted to the Night's Watch thousands of years ago by Bran and the Builder, and they kind of use that land for their needs, their needs, you know, for like farming and everything, and they don't really use it anymore. And they make a note of that because, um, like they kind of just don't really need that land for for their farming and all of that anymore. But it's uh noteworthy, I think they they do talk about it in, uh in house the dragon when they're talking about king jaharis and stuff.
Speaker 2:I am I'm pretty sure that that we talked about that at some point, and they talk about it as well in this episode too, saying that you know why don't people just live in this area of land, this stretch of land? There's no war here and you know you can farm on this land, and that's when they give us that quick Like this is the history lesson, I guess, just behind what they're talking about.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that Bran says oh, oh, yeah, he does and Rick was like oh yeah, oh, nan said they would use their skulls for to drink blood. And you see, osho like really you believe that?
Speaker 2:like kind of take shelter and rest. I guess there was like a storm, I think, and they were basically resting and keeping safe in an abandoned mill. And then actually like pause. I was going to go to John now, yeah, yeah yeah, like pause, let's talk about John.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that they're like hand in hand, so I think the scenes are happening at the same time Because, john, they'd want to attack the horse breeder for the night's watch yes and then all of a sudden the horse breeder escapes and he ends up at that same gift tower and that's how they almost have that reunion. Uh, but I do want to say that this, this episode is, it was a test. It was the final test for John to see if he was a true like deserter of the night's watch. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And obviously he failed because he's, you know, he even despite his feelings for Egret, he ultimately chose to remain loyal to the night's watch, you know, leading to the you know the skirmish and him killing of um or. Or now john gives, he slaps his sword against rocks, giving a little subtle warning to the breeder and to the horses.
Speaker 2:So the horses, all of a sudden they start getting jumpy and kind of warned the breeder to like get out of there so I thought that was really clever it's kind of like something that we're waiting for as well, without realizing that we're waiting for it, with it being john's test of loyalty, like we know that he can't keep up this act for for forever, you know.
Speaker 2:You know that it's bound to to reach this kind of point where he has to kind of reveal himself as being loyal to the water, loyal to the wildlings, andgritte. So when it actually happens and he leaves them, we're like, oh, here it is, like here's the kind of like the moment we've been waiting for and we realize where that storyline is likely heading. And it's kind of, I guess it's kind of bittersweet, because you get that satisfaction and that relief, I guess, of knowing that Jon is still Jon and he's loyal to the Watch and he's that character that we know. But at the same time we're like, but Ygritte, like what's going to happen? And at this point we still see Tormund and the others as like villains, right, so we're not rooting for them, we don't know, like, where their storylines are going to end up. So it just feels a bit like.
Speaker 3:I don't know disbelief yeah she's like, she can't, like, she actually is shocked that he is still, you know, a member of the night's watch, essentially like she thought, oh, he's my man and he's gonna, he's for me, he's never gonna leave me and then her, her face. It is a betrayal like her face and you know it's, and he's a star to the bone. He's too loyal, he cannot. Yeah, he loves her, but he has an oath that he cannot. Well, he broke the oath anyway, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I know and I think that like that anger that we see in her is the fact that she's angry at his betrayal. But also, I can you can see it in her face that she's kind of angry at herself because she was warned against him. You know, like they kept telling her in the show like don't trust him, he's not going to be loyal to us and she's the only one that believed in him and you could kind of see that she feels like she betrayed her own people. But when john leaves them it's kind of it's it's heartbreaking to see, even though it's like kind of really fast.
Speaker 3:You can see it's all on rose leslie's face, she's an amazing actress she was seduced by the curls, by the eyes come on.
Speaker 2:I think that. I don't think it's just that.
Speaker 3:Come on, give her some credits, uh yeah, is there any guy who looks like that in in the? Any wildling that looks like john?
Speaker 2:sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Oh, yeah, true, when you say wildling, fine, when you said first you said any guy in the world, he's saying any guy in the world with john's curls. And then you were giving like, giving me a like, I don't know, like a lecture, for is it saying that rob looked glorious or something majestic once, and you're saying no one looks like it's harrington in the entire world. Come on, I'm joking now. Um, uh, but yeah, uh, they both look like amazing, but anyways. So, yeah, I'm glad to see that from from john, and we actually also.
Speaker 2:We didn't talk about it before, but him killing oral is kind of like a significant moment for him as well, because, yes, he's protecting himself, but at the same time, we didn't see john really kill anyone other than than corin, right and with core, and it was kind of like he was doing his duty. Here it's self-defense, and I think that definitely leaves an impact, because it's not just, you know, fulfilling his duty and doing kind of the right thing. Killing Corrin was the right thing he was told to do. That, you know, here it's kind of like something that he's doing of his own free will and he, like we can see him during the battle grappling with is this what I think to do or not? And then he eventually like, just like you can see it in his eyes, and then he just kills him and knows that this is this. Is that, I think? Because he's protecting himself like come on and I think saving the watch he I don't think there's any grappling.
Speaker 3:He, when he shoves that sword into him, he gives him like yeah, you were right.
Speaker 2:Like oh, he did say that. He did say that he was like you, were always right about me and he, he looked satisfied, looking.
Speaker 3:I don't think I. I think killing other people yeah, maybe torment would would have been, uh, he would have thought twice, but not against this guy. He was ready to to kill this guy. Um, this, this also he's had enough yeah, he's had enough. You think about this episode, we always think about, you know the last five minutes, but this is a massive turning point in brand's arc.
Speaker 3:Like yeah, I was gonna say that as well now he has this incredible, like mystical power that he can wield and like warg into humans, because that's never been done before. I kind of got a flashback to not a flashback when I saw him working too I guess you mean like you're remembering what happens to hodor rather than his powers.
Speaker 2:Yeah okay, I thought you meant about the, the working ability this is.
Speaker 3:It's also sad. You know what?
Speaker 2:this is the last time he'll see Rickon yeah, yeah, that's what I'm gonna say as well, like, like it's, it's. You don't realize how sad this episode really really is, because you have the John and Ygritte's like uh, separation, and you have the the Brian and Rickon separation you have, and then you have the almost three reunions with John and Brian and and Rickon as well, and the almost reunion at the at the red wedding, and then you have the almost reunions with Jon and Bran and Rurik Khan as well, and the almost reunion at the Red Wedding, and then you have the Red Wedding. So it's like an episode of reunions and separations. You know it's so sad it's so it's like that's bad, it's just it's a heartbreaking episode, as you said. Like back to Bran, because this is where their stories kind of merge. Outside that tower we see the man that Jon saved kind of like run power flex, like no, he wasn't running, he was on like a horse thing right, a horse thing. He was on like some sort of animal and he was safe. Some horse thing.
Speaker 2:Some horse thing. Every horse is now some horse thing. But then, yeah, bran kind of enters the mind of Summer and works into him to save Jon, which is also like a really good moment, and I wish we saw even though we do, as you said, mention that we see the working into Hodor in season six. I don't think that we see enough of the working, because it is present in the books, isn't it? It's so, it's. It's not just like some rare event that occurs, it's, it's a part of the book.
Speaker 2:So yeah and remember this is a rare moment all the starks are able to do it.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about when john's fighting. Did he not notice that those are two dire wolves? Oh my god, you're right wait like all of a sudden, like he hasn't seen summer and shaggy wolf since he left to the wall and they weren't as big, obviously, because you know how huge they are, but he could have been like, wait a minute, what? What are these dire wolves just showing up all of a sudden?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, like that. I think that's the only explanation that we can, john not noticing them. It's just probably because he was fighting for his life, otherwise we can consider it a plot hole.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's something that we, as fans, we're so desperate for that Stark reunion, right, and we're like, okay, this is it, he's out there.
Speaker 2:And then we don't get a Stark reunion until season six when Sansa shows up at the maids watch or castle black I was looking into this episode and I actually found like a piece of information that I kind of forgot about, like the canon, the world of game of thrones, it's when you mentioned it as well, when they mentioned, um, old nan, hodor was a bit sad about that. They were like oh, the reason why, like they, they made hodor like a bit obsessed, and during the scene, the mentioning of old nan is because in the canon hodor is old nan's great grandson and I completely forgot that, I didn't know, and something else that I kind of thought was like a like just another note about this scene, like the last notes I want to say, is that when bran like basically says, like you know, we have to separate, me and recon have to separate, I think that it's like when we actually see Bran maturing, because he obviously takes that decision, because he knows that as the last two heirs of Winterfell, it might be safer for them if they're not together. And sure, it probably wasn't the wisest decision because of where Rikon ends up and he ends up with the Boltons and everything later on. But at the end of the day, I think that it came from a place of maturity for Bran where he realizes this because he's not just a kid anymore. You know what I mean. He's not just this kid that's being like, oh, me and my brother have to stay together. He actually sees the dangers of the world during this moment and is like, no, it probably isn't our best interest for us not to be in the same place at the same time, because we are two valuable targets and we're both heirs to Winterfell, and I don't know if I'm going to survive this because especially he's thinking this because of his own powers and it might be safest to keep Rickon in a distant space. So I just want to note that this is probably a significant another why, another reason why it's a significant moment for Bran. But yeah, so let's move on to another dear, dear Stark that we have in this episode, and that's Arya.
Speaker 2:Arya has a brief scene in the beginning, like kind of separate from everybody else, where she and the Hound are obviously on their way to the Twins. He's going to ransom her off to her mom and her brother and they make it just outside the Twins like they're in the Riverlands area and like the Hound, as he does, gets into like a thing with a guy, like they're just arguing and he was about to kill him. And then Arya says I wrote it down because I love this scene. This was like a small moment, but I loved it. She says don't kill him.
Speaker 2:You're so dangerous, arya, saying scary things to little girls, killing little boys and old people. A real hard man you are. And I just love that scene because no one calls out the hound like that ever, you know, and it's like she's belittling him, being like yeah, you're, you're, you're, you think you're, you're scary. Just because you, you target like what? Little girls and little boys and old people like those are easy targets. You're not a strong, hard man, scary warrior. If your targets are children and old people, you're a loser, you know. And I love that because no one says that to the house. Everyone always looks at him with fear and with loathing, you know, and no one really likes him. And she's just like you think. You think you're so tough. If you're so tough, why are your targets like people that are so helpless? Prove yourself.
Speaker 2:And I love that because only Arya would say that. Only Arya would do that. And even when he says something like he defends himself, like, even though it wasn't in a real good way, she was like you're wrong, I know a real killer, you're nothing, she's like that. She he'd kill you with his finger and uh, I just loved it so much it was. It was, it was a cool scene. And then I don't know we're going to talk about what's. I'm going to leave that until the end of the episode. I hope I remember, because then I was, I was going to go completely different, or I'll just say it now because I don't gonna forget. Do you think if the hound um made it the day before before, like, and gave Arya up to them, would they have killed Arya as well?
Speaker 3:I don't think Arya would have been, because I didn't see any children there at the wedding.
Speaker 2:But that's the thing they killed his unborn baby.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they wouldn't have had any issue killing her, because if they're murdering a pregnant woman, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so she would have been killed.
Speaker 2:Okay, before we say this, pause on the what ifs, listen and talk about more when the wedding actually happens. Because I don't want to say something about aria as well, because we get two scenes of them before the red wedding, the second time we see them interact for the red wedding. Um, the hound and aria. Um, we see aria. She looks hopeful.
Speaker 3:I read it as her being hopeful when she sees the twins what I see in her eyes, I see is hope, feeling that okay, I'm so close I've been a part of from my family for I guess I don't know what's the timeline here at least a year and a plus, right yeah, yeah so I I think her looking to the twins and seeing that there's my family, I'm safe. Finally, when you can act with your eyes, you are a very good actor. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know when people can just tell you what they're feeling, which is the look on their face and how their eyes are moving, that's just a sign of a great actor and she's a very good actor, actress, actor. The next time we see her, she's they're going, they're trying to get into the twins and basically they lock down because we have the bedding ceremony, right, actually, let's go to when they arrive at the twins.
Speaker 2:That's actually the first episode. Even before that, there's a scene between Rob and Kat before they arrive.
Speaker 3:There's the first first scene, this first scene with Walder Frey, where Rob is apologizing. First of all, I wouldn't have apologized in front of everybody. I would have said I need to speak with your daughters in private and apologize Because I don't know. I felt like it made him look a little weak to apologize in front of everybody. The reason why I say that is because Walder Frey is so snarky and so curmudgeon. What he says about Talisa is something that could have had his tongue removed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Any other king and you know, you can see. You know what I'm talking about, right.
Speaker 3:Like oh, I would have broken 50-0s for you and your body and this. And it's just like right, then and there, rob needed to do something. He can't have this guy talk to you or your queen like that, so that really pissed me off. That's another moment of like, rob, you didn't do anything Like is it really that important? And I go back to why didn't you just go to Renly? Why didn't you just go to Renly? Why didn't you just go to Stannis? Here, I don't care. I don't want to be the king of the north. Let's help each other out.
Speaker 2:Stannis was the real, real missed opportunity. I think for Rob that was horrible, and Edmure is the big mistake in all this as well, because if it wasn't for him, it would have been all okay. Stannis probably would have been on the throne. As we said Again, if you want to know the context behind that, you have to go all the way back to our previous episodes and be up to date on our podcast, especially the Battle of Blackwater episode.
Speaker 3:But anyways, I'm sorry, but then you have Walder introducing like 10 of his daughters and granddaughters, and not their fault, they're not you, you know. Quote unquote game of thrones, beautiful, like marjorie and cersei and all those daenerys, it's not. You know what I mean. So it's kind of like they all have weird names wilda, juanina or something some kind of weird.
Speaker 2:And uh, and mirs was like his face is so upset oh, I know, I know, but like, then he ends up getting like, he ends up marrying one of the prettiest girls there, right, like I forgot and I think that's totally a dig on rob he he oh, yeah, true, true he purposely did not have her there in the beginning, so the one that he unveiled her he'd be like see what you missed.
Speaker 3:You could have this. I'm going to be all over the place, but there's a moment where Catlin is talking to the Blackfish and he's like this man complained all through the King's Road, he was moping and all that, and all of a sudden he's there having having a great time, because now he has a beautiful bride. Everything is forgiven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to wait. I want to before I forget. I want to make a note about what you said about Rob's apology. Like I completely understand what you're coming from, where you're coming from and being like it is weak. I think I just want to say that for rob I think in his mind he was probably like apologizing in front of everybody is the noble thing to do, because he never publicly like acknowledged what he did.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean so I think that this is him thinking I'm gonna say that it was in the name of love and then this is going to absolve me because everybody will understand the power of the love and and I apologized, so it's going to resonate and everybody's going to. You know, I don't think he sees this weakness and I I don't necessarily see it as weakness, but I do think that he should have done something. When Walder Frey, like I, insulted his wife and Catherine stopped him because he was going to say something he was going to he was he moved before that?
Speaker 3:I will say this I kind of understood where he was coming from, because it was like a public acknowledgement and being like it was a very yes, I don't know apology and it was very nice and I think it made them feel a little better, but I just think it could have been done in private we mentioned this a couple of episodes ago his whole thing.
Speaker 2:Suddenly to like get the, to get casterly rock to show that taiwan is, is not invincible. That's such a dumb side quest like that, come on like. That's not what you're fighting for. That's why rob lost his, his army, because that's not what they're fighting like. Why, just to show a force, just to show that you're strong and he's weak, that's, that's not serving your best interest. That's not fighting for your family, that's not fighting for your land, that's just trying to to, I don't know, boost, boost your own ego and destroy another man's ego. That has no real like um gain for you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like that, that's just a bad side quest and also caitlin saying, uh, she does tell him, look, if we get caught here, we're between the sea and and their army will be dead, which should have been a red flag. Let's not do it. Let's just focus on what we need to do. Let's try to salvage any support that we lost or try to regain the support, but no, let's do like you said the side quest that's going to make us go through this guy that we spurned or, you know, offended by breaking the oath. You're rewatching this for the. I don't know how many times, but if you're watching it for the first time, you're like well, maybe they're going to get away with it. I think you know, for now he had to endure some insults to his queen, but when you get to the wedding part, people are having fun, they're chatting they're drinking You're like, okay, well, maybe, but then in the pit of your stomach you're like well, this is a penultimate episode.
Speaker 3:You know what happens in season one Ned dies. Season two is Blackwater and something has to happen, right, because this is a tradition.
Speaker 3:Now the first game of thrones and people were waiting for something, because the warging with that that's not a big enough twist for us to be like, oh yeah, that's a great episode. Something has to, yeah. And I guess when one you know you have you, this music starts playing and then you realize something's wrong because you see Catlin's face you heard the story about the song from the previous episode you feel like, ok, well, there's no Lannisters here, but we're listening to their quote theme song or their revenge song. We put the audio up in the beginning of the episode of you know, they close the doors, they have the bedding ceremony, which, funny enough, we talked about the bedding ceremony in the last episode because Tyrion and Sansa was married and they kind of show it here. And here's what I saw. I saw the bride frightened about what was happening and I saw the groom excited because all these women are touching him. You know what I mean. So you have the bride being fondled by all these drunk men. And then you have the guy.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of a weird tradition. Even to us it's like what the heck is going on here? Yeah you know to, yeah, you know what. That's just the way it is. It's true, like who cares?
Speaker 3:right, even ramsay bolton's like, oh, you should have, or you had to endure that in your wedding, and then she says something that ned forbade it right like he didn't want to have to break somebody's jaw on his wedding night, which, yeah, that was just for the show, and I think in the book it does mention that they did have a bedding ceremony, and I think that's just for the show arc, right, or?
Speaker 2:did. Yeah, I just want to mention tony. You said, uh, ramsay bolton it's not Ramsey.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry um Rose Bolton. Yeah, because.
Speaker 2:I was a bit like like we haven't seen it. We haven't really like, well, we have seen it but we haven't really like. You know it's not. Um, yeah, I think it does happen in the book. I remember something like that being mentioned.
Speaker 2:For sure, when I listen to the audiobook for for a storm of sorts, um, and yeah, when you mentioned that, like you're thinking, oh, it's like it might get away, when you're wondering, I, I don't know because I, we're gonna get to this, but I was always wondering how people reacted to the red wedding for the first time and, um, that's what we're gonna get to eventually, other people's reactions, but it doesn't seem like that's where the show is, like that's what's Obviously, who would expect the slaughter, you know, as you said, like they closed the doors. It seems normal, nothing's going wrong. Even at the beginning of this podcast episode, when you played the scene, like the music is not sad, like before it transitions into like the eerie music, you know, like the Reigns of Castamere and stuff, it was very like fine, it was normal. It sounds like jolly. Like who would expect that red episode, that the red?
Speaker 3:wedding would start with that music unless you're very, very clever and you're like wait a minute. Cersei's talked about the reigns of castamere and the origins and now I just saw on the caption and said reigns of castamere, music. What's gonna happen? Imagine imagine like if you could put two into it, but I don't think people are doing that, and it's just a funny thing that this. What makes for me like okay, now the violence starts, and then you get something that probably never was shown on tv is a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the belly.
Speaker 3:In the belly, like straight on the belly. What makes the violence so effective and disturbing is how suddenly it unfolds. So one moment there's music and, like I said, there's toast, and then next, boom, pregnant Talista is being stabbed and Rob and Catn are surrounded by smiling killers. So it's not like stylized violence, it's raw, it's ugly, it's freaking, like terrifying, you don't know what to do. The camera doesn't flinch, is right there. It doesn't glamorize. It, instead of like you're trapped and it within the audience, like you, you're helpless because you can't believe that this is happening to your favorite characters, the Starks. Like how much can this family endure? How much pain and suffering? Really? Why do you, george, why do you hate this family so much?
Speaker 2:Like we thought these were the heroes. Yeah, I think you have it Like a quote from George where he talks about why he had to do it like he. Like he kind of killed them because, not because he loved them, but because it's something that he had to do despite the fact that he loved them so much. Do you have that quote from him when he talked?
Speaker 3:about? Yeah, I think he did a um interview with entertainment weekly in 2013 and they asked him how early in the process of writing the book series did you know you were going to kill off Robin Catlin? He replied, I quote I knew it almost from the beginning, not the first day, but very soon. I've said in many interviews that I like fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he's the hero, but then he'll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father, and everybody's going to expect that. So immediately quote killing Rob became the next thing I had to do.
Speaker 2:I get him. But hearing him phrase it in that way is kind of like bringing back war flashbacks, of being like I'm gonna do this to subvert expectations from dan and dave. You know, when they when they said that about season eight. But yeah, like it works with with george, because it's doing something different, it's taking in like something. I mean it's actually planning something and reworking it. You know, it's not just letting go of an entire character arc overnight, so it's different. But it did remind me, unfortunately, of the trauma of Dan and Dave's quote being like we're going to have Danny do this to subvert expectations at the last minute because she wouldn't see the thing coming like oh anyways, um, but I have a no, sorry, I have another quote from george that says when the book came out storm of swords, I got a tremendous reaction to it.
Speaker 3:I got angry letters that said I will never read your work again and the tv show version is 13 years later and I knew, having been through it once, we would get the similar big reaction. And he actually came out in conan, uh, I think a few months after, uh, the the show aired and conan showed him a little montage of people yeah, yeah people reacting to the red wedding and george was giddy he goes.
Speaker 3:Well, those people who were recording are the people who read the book, so they wanted to see the reaction and that's how kind of like before that reactions to anything was not a thing like that.
Speaker 1:That was kind of like the first thing of people like like.
Speaker 3:I've showed you the reaction. When I recorded my son, I sent you the seven minute video and he's just kind of like. If you see him he's like in disbelief, he goes what?
Speaker 3:and he felt so betrayed. To his credit, he kept watching immediately like he wanted to watch the next episode. But we did put out a quick little prompt to ask people their reactions or they had any questions, and I did get three people who basically said the same thing. So let me just say so I have johnboyltgmoviesrus underscore and then travelenthusiast with similar stories, saying that I was traumatized and I quit the show but eventually went back to it, which is something that a lot of people did after Jon Snow's death, which was my son.
Speaker 3:My son had the same reaction. He's like I'm done with the show because he after Rob, it was John. So I had to pretty much convince him to say hey, you know, I didn't say hey, by the way, just wait two more episodes You'll be good. I kind of say no, no, it's gonna get good, don't worry about it. And he went back. But so I'm assuming I've seen so many different reactions I went to youtube and I typed in reactions and just people just bawling and crying and and I get it, because it's such a shocking thing yeah, it is, it is.
Speaker 2:I mean, even re-watching it, the episode, I was like I can't believe that. It still feels shocking seeing the way it unfolds, because first you have to listen, then you have Rob, and then Rob almost makes it. You know like you feel like, oh, there's still some hope, maybe you know. And then Kat and oh, maybe Kat's bargaining wouldn't work now, but yeah, we kept up that question.
Speaker 3:And now, like the Red Wedding is a term that is used to say, is it Red Wedding X? Like we talked about that?
Speaker 2:for House of the Dragon.
Speaker 3:House of the Dragon yeah, and we do it for other shows. Oh, is this violence or shocking? Is it like the Red Wedding, because it's so? Do for other shows. Oh, is this violence or shocking? Is it? Is it like the red wedding, because it's so yeah, you know what I mean like there's no other scene in tv history that comes close to it that's true.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, that is true. I feel like it's it's applicable across all of pop culture. Now, um, and I feel like, also, you also might have people trying to replicate that kind of hype and buzz being like we want something as shocking as the red wedding because that was, you know, that changed everything for, for, for game of thrones, and it was like the most shocking still talked about event in game of thrones. People want that event in their, in their shows. You know what I mean. Like, no matter what it is. So, um, I think that's behind the scenes with, like, critters used to have people trying to emulate what the red wedding created. Um, but I do want to mention the questions or like the stories that I got from people.
Speaker 2:Um, so one of my best friends, uh, she says I went to my mom's room sobbing. She says did someone die? I told her everyone did. And, uh, another one of my best friends, um, she says my brother knew rob stark was a favorite of mine and would jokingly say wait until the red wedding episode, you will love it. And she didn't say this in the the message that she sent me, but I remember her telling me that when, when he told her oh wait, until his episode in the red wedding, you know.
Speaker 2:And then they kept mentioning a wedding and edmure's wedding and I don't know. She was like there's kept mentioning a wedding and Edmure's wedding and I don't know. She was like there's going to be a wedding. Like oh my God, like she was so happy about it. I remember her telling me that in person and she was like I was so naive to believe him. And she says call me and like leave me anonymous, slash H. And then someone else said I was so mad that I stopped watching. And then, when they cast him in the Cinderella movie, I continued.
Speaker 3:Let me know Richard Madden.
Speaker 2:So that was a nice like. At least that got you back to Game of Thrones. And did we ever talk about our reaction? Like Tony, you were a book reader first. Like, did you ever mention how you reacted when you read the?
Speaker 3:book. Yeah, so I, like I said, I read after I watched season. I read the first book, I watched season one, then I read all the books before season two. So by the time I read it I was waiting for it. But I think I've mentioned this a couple of times when reading this chapter it's the only time I've ever stood up.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you said that While reading and I go what, wait, what, what Like? It's so insane Like I couldn't believe what was going on, and because there's so much like the red wedding, the purple wedding, it's all like so close together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah yeah, in the third book and and I, I was just right then and there I go, okay, so everybody's up for grabs, obviously, like who's gonna survive, who's gonna like is denarius gonna be killed? Now, like it's how the dragons, you know like your mind starts to wander, like who's who's actually gonna be on the iron throne, because there's no way anybody can go and that's what makes the book so good.
Speaker 2:That's completely true, and I wish that I had the book experience first, but I didn't, so I obviously had the show one first and I don't really remember much of how I reacted. Funnily enough, it's been. I think I watched it like 11 years ago, 2014. I loved Rob a lot. I love the Starks. Obviously, I love Danny as well, but you know what I mean. Like I did really have a soft spot for the Starks and my brother didn't tell me much but and he would just like nod. Whenever I said like oh, I love Rob or I love the Starks, he'd be like yeah, and like nod and said like yeah, yeah, I get it, whatever.
Speaker 2:And then I remember I wanted to Google something about Rob. I forgot what it was and then it said status deceased and I just saw it and went what Excuse me? Like he's going to die. So I knew he was gonna die, unfortunately, because I spoiled that something for myself. And I knew that there was something called the red wedding. I just didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2:And then I remember watching it, um, not long after, like getting around to it and and, um, crying my eyes out. And then it wasn't too long ago it was this year and a couple of months ago when I finally read it in the books, um, and I thought it was really cool. I thought that's happened, not really cool in a good way, but, like um, it was interesting to see the differences and to relive it in that way, because there are some differences and I remember being shocking and being like on edge and like like, at the same time, knowing, like, like, feeling that dread, you know that it's coming soon, it's coming soon. And then, like, it was bittersweet when it's ended because I was like, okay, at least I don't have to go through the trauma of that again, and I know that because you told me that that the purple wedding was coming very soon after. Um, so that was my story with it.
Speaker 2:And I do have a few uh like things I want to mention from the books as well, about George, and he said that was the hardest thing to write. I think we mentioned this on the podcast before where, like, he wrote the entire book and then went back and wrote the red wedding scene, just because it was so hard for him to to write that actual scene, and I didn't know this, but apparently he wanted to be in the scene in the show um, but he could, he wasn't able to. He wants to be one of the casualties, uh of the red wedding and play like a dead body or something.
Speaker 2:But he, he couldn't make it in time for the, for the filming, um, but there was a scene that there there was a quote. Sorry that I thought that you pulled up for George or that you came across, but I don't. I mentioned about George's experience killing them off in the books. He says the more I write about a character, the more affection I feel even for the worst of them, which doesn't mean I won't kill them. Whoever it was who said kill your darlings was was referring to his favorite lines in the story. But it's just as true for characters.
Speaker 2:The moment the reader begins to believe that the character is protected by the magical cloak of authorial immunity, tension goes out the window. The Red Wedding was tremendously hard to write and then he mentioned that he had to go back and write it again. He said I love those characters too much, but I knew it had to be done. So it's almost like it wasn't just like out of nowhere. He knew that this is what he kind of had to do. So I I appreciate, like I respect that, I understand that. And he actually mentions did you see this where he says that, um, he thinks that the red wedding on screen is worse than the book, especially because telisa's pregnant and she like yeah, I mean visuals.
Speaker 3:if you see it, it's so gruesome. Yeah, it's traumatizing. I do have a quick note about the director, david Nutter, saying that he approached the episode like a slow-burning horror scene, so he chose to film most of it chronologically, allowing actors to emotionally spiral with their character. The tension on set was so palpable. Michelle Farrelly's final scream was so raw it reportedly left the crew members in tears. Richard Madden, who plays Rob, admitted he cried even after they called cut. Oana Chaplin, playing Talissa, was so shaken by the stabbing scene that she cried while playing dead, prompting the director to say dead people don't cry.
Speaker 3:And the sequence was rehearsed and blocked like a battle plan, but emotionally it was chaos. So it's kind of like I can imagine you know Michelle Farrelly and Richard Madden being with that show for three plus years, maybe four years, and all of a sudden you have to make that scene and then that's it, you're done. Yeah, that could be incredibly emotional. I do want actually I want to highlight Michelle Farrelly for her performance. I think it's nothing short of legendary. Her scream is so effing raw. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Filled with anguish. I mean, it stops time. It wasn't just losing her son that she was reacting to, it was just everything that she's fought to preserve. She delivered that entire I read that she delivered that entire final scene in one continuous take. So holding the camera with you know, that intensity, that right there like, made it so heartbreaking, an unforgettable moment. And it's a freaking shame that she wasn't even nominated for an emmy right that that right, that scene alone, right there, should have been worthy of a nomination.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't believe that.
Speaker 3:Rob does it. I mean, Richard Madden does a great job and I think just the touching of Talisa's stomach and grabbing her head, and just what can you say? I mean, it's something that I don't want to revisit again for a while. I'm doing it because we're doing the podcast, right yeah, but I don't want to be like a while I'm doing it because we're doing the podcast, right, but I don't want to be like oh yeah, you know what, let me watch this episode. No, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:When you said something, when you said that about Michelle Farrelly, I kind of want to I do agree, and I want to make a note that when, like you really feel her loss, as you said, and you really get the sense that Kat doesn't have anything to live for anymore, like, yes, um, she has Sansa, she has Arya, she has Bran and Rickon they're still alive and well in the world, but she doesn't know that you know when, when, when that happens, and she, she, she kind of accepts her fate, but at the same time, she's like no, like, like they're going to die. Like you can just sense that I have, like you can read it on her face. She's like no, like they're going to die, like you can just sense that I have, like you can read it on her face. She's like I have nothing else to live for. That's it I'm. They killed my son, they killed my unborn grandchild, they killed my husband. They likely are going to kill my daughters very soon and my sons.
Speaker 2:So, and does she believe, actually, that Bran and Rickon are dead? Because I think that she might. Yeah, so she is sure that Sansa and Arya are gonna die? Sorry, what I said about her sons. She, she thinks that they're dead. I just forgot about that point. So she just sees a woman that you just see, a woman that doesn't have anything to live for anymore. She's like death is better for me than living in this world. Like I think at that point, honestly, she could have just easily taken her own life, as if she was like either it was her taking her own life or her being killed, like in that instance, like it's not funny, sorry, but like that's that's that, like that was just cat's mindset.
Speaker 2:And I think that what george wanted to communicate um through the red wedding scene, was effectively communicated because of of um. Because here's what he said yes, it was just to like not just to do something different, but it was to to do that, you know, to say what he said about his characters and to make sure that people kind of know that no one's safe and, and you know, not really give people what they expect in one way. But he actually says that's one of the reasons why he did it is because he wanted people to feel the weight of death. He says it's a horrible chapter and it upsets people, it makes people angry, it makes people sad. People throw the book against the wall or into the fireplace. When it was on TV, it had the same effect on tens of thousands, if not millions, of people. To my mind, that's good.
Speaker 2:We're talking about death here. We all, in our real lives, have experienced death. Your parents die, your best friend dies, sometimes in a really tragic situation, your children die or your wife or husband dies. It's terrible, it affects you, it makes you angry, it makes you sad.
Speaker 2:In our entertainment television, film, books over the centuries as it's evolved, death is often treated very cavalierly. Somebody is dead, we've got a mystery and the detective has to figure out who did it. We never consider who the corpse is or what his life was like, what it's going to be like without him. If I'm going to write a death scene, particularly for major characters, I want to make sure the reader feel it. That's what the Red Wedding, I think, successfully accomplished. People felt that death and I can't help but agree and I feel like, yes, the shock value of it all might overshadow it, and it's going to be argued whether that's a good thing or a bad thing when it comes to George's trying to do the shock value of it all, but ultimately it's feeling the weight of the death of a huge character Not just one, but two and there is a very tragic element to it and I think you said something before we started recording that you found a fact that was inspired by something like in history.
Speaker 2:George pulled inspiration from something that's actually happened in real life. So I think that it did like. George did accomplish what he set out to do, even though I would make like the kind of footnote and be like maybe the shock factor of it all does take away from it a little bit. So I think that, yeah, he accomplished his goal.
Speaker 3:A mission accomplished for him. I mean, it's served as a turning point for the audience, right? So when it comes to, like, the consequences of Rob's death and it effectively removed House Stark from any political landscape, that's it. There was no pursuit of independence. And then you have, in the next episode, we realized it was all under Tywin Lannister's orders and he's sitting there, he's basically being kingly, and that's it. And we're like, okay, where does this story go? Now? The story, the stars are done. Who's going gonna fight the lannisters? Stannis, you know? I mean like, yeah, daenerys, she's out there, she's trying to. You know, uh, free slaves and her dragons are still too young. You know, are we gonna have this lannister reign for how much longer?
Speaker 2:we kind of feel like it's theirs, like they won the game already, right, yeah. But then I guess, if you're watching it for this first time and you have that realization, it could just be like how are they going to fall? Do you know what? I mean Like it has to be from within. Then maybe they could predict where it was it would be heading. But you Then maybe they could predict where it would be heading.
Speaker 3:You know I was going to add the audio of Michelle Farrelly's last scene but you know, I don't want to do that, it's too much.
Speaker 3:No, don't, it's too much, I can't. For those you know. Just if you want to rewatch it, go to YouTube. You'll find I just can't hear her. That yell is just freaking. It penetrates your soul and I don't even want to hear it anymore. Well, you did mention the Red Wedding, the live event, the real life events that I found those from Scottish history. There's something called the Black Dinner from 1440. A 10-year-old Earl of Douglas was invited to dine with King James II only to have a black bull's head, a symbol of death, served before he and his brother were executed. And then something called the Glencoe Massacre of 1692. The Campbell clan killed their McDonald host after accepting their hospitality Betrayal under the sacred rules of guest rights. Sound familiar?
Speaker 2:I think we have pretty much covered everything about the Red Wedding that we could possibly find online or could talk about ourselves, but there's actually one tiny little Easter egg or fun fact about the episode. I think Lots of people know this, but this would be really cool to mention. I guess it's a fun. It's a tidbit from the show, which is that in the red wedding scene there's actually a musician. I don't really know what instrument he's playing, but uh, the, the drummer from coldplay, is actually one of the musicians on the red wedding, which is actually a really fun.
Speaker 3:Uh, cameo coldplay exists in george's world coldplay and ed sheeran yes oh my gosh, okay, so let's get to our scene of the episode. Are we gonna say, obviously we're saying the last scene?
Speaker 3:yeah, we can't say anything else there's nothing else that can top it. Obviously and we've talked about it now uh, this episode is rated 9.9 on IMDb and it's one of the highest rated episodes of television when it comes to how many people reviewed it, because there's some episodes that have a 9.9 and 10 people reviewed it, so that doesn't really count. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of reviews and it comes to a 9.9. So what is your rating of the reigns of castamere?
Speaker 2:I'd give it a 9.5 really you can't give this a 10 if this is because look no, like it's it's, I want to give it to 10, but at the same time, like honestly, like it just feels a bit no, you're right, like it's just because the danny makes it a bit less focused, even though I love danny we agree on that.
Speaker 3:But what happens? That build-up and and the ending makes up for daenerys's little you know story and sam yeah, yeah yeah, so you can.
Speaker 3:It makes up for that. This is a 10, I think. This is what the for me. I think is that the third 10 I'm giving out. I think I gave out a 10 for the first episode, uh, and then blackwater. I gave a 10, and then this one, and that concludes our 70th episode of the podcast. Thanks for joining us as we unpack this brutal turning point. If you're still reeling, you're not alone. This is the moment that shattered hearts and changed the realm forever. But make sure to follow, rate and share if you enjoyed the episode. To follow the podcast on Instagram, go to dancingwith__dragons. Join us next time as we review the season finale of the third season of Game of Thrones. Meanwhile, I will attempt to pick up the pieces and follow the scattered stars into the aftermath of betrayal, because in Westeros the dead may fall, but the North remembers.
