Dancing with Dragons
This is the official account for the Dancing With Dragons podcast!
Follow along as we dive deep into the epic fantasy world of Westeros, discussing the intricate stories from George RR Martin, our memorable characters, the ever-changing power dynamics, and episode breakdowns, among many other insightful and fun discussions. Whether you're a devoted GoT nerd like us or new to the books or series and its spin-off, House of the Dragon, this podcast is your ultimate companion in exploring the Seven Kingdoms.Tune in and subscribe on your go-to listening platform.
Valar Morghulis
Dancing with Dragons
Game of Thrones: S3 | EP8 "Second Sons"
We continue our Game of Thrones rewatch with Season 3 Episode 8, "Second Sons," examining royal weddings, surprising alliances, and Sam's groundbreaking discovery about White Walkers.
Follow Dancing with Dragons on Instagram
Follow Tony on IG: Sirtone_Reviews
Follow Minwa on IG: TheArabKhaleesi
https://dancingwithdragons.buzzsprout.com
Email us @DancewithDragons62@gmail.com
Will you fight for me? Swear to me, the Second Sons are yours, and so is Daario Naharis. My sword is yours, my life is yours, my heart is yours.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire universe. My name is Minua and I'm here with my co-host, tony, and in this episode we're continuing our rewatch of Season 3 of Game of Thrones and we'll be discussing Episode 8, second Sons. Yes, the dreaded Red Wedding is coming very, very soon, but before we get to that and to today's episode, we have some Westerosi news we need to talk about. First and foremost, we have some mini-updates on HBO's Aegon's Conquest project. Writer Matt Stomlin shared that George RR Martin will be involved in the project. Lots of writing has been completed and he's most excited to see the opening scene come to life on the show. Matt Stomlin also posted on Twitter slash X Turning in scripts feels good and he's like referring to him turning into HBO the script for Egon's Conquest. So that pretty much confirms that update as well.
Speaker 2:Tomlin previously wrote the scripts for the film Little Fish and Project Power and he's a co-writer to the Batman Part 2 with director Matt Reeves. Seems like it's in good hands. I'm glad George is a part of it. It's a good sign for now. George hasn good sign for now. George hasn't said anything about it. In case you're wondering, um, the only thing that george has updated us on is the fact that he enjoyed the superman film, the new apple tv series, murder bots, and he says that andrew was this year's highlight for him.
Speaker 3:I'm sure tony would agree yes, and I'm very happy he said that. I applaud him. It said that he's actively involved. We've heard that many times. It's just yeah, it's not like oh, oh, yay. Like he loves the duncan show, like he said he loves it, it's the best thing he did, um, so I'm excited for that. But yeah, I mean he's actively engaged, he's available, I guess, for the lore consultation. I'm excited for this show. I mean we we've talked about maybe we should we wanted some other non-Targaryen media for a bit and then go back to Targaryen because we're going to have House of the Dragon. I thought that Aegon's Conquest was going to be the second show for Game of Thrones when they finish the main show. It's going to be a tall task. It's going to be weird because in the book you know how. It's not a POV book, it's just like a historical textbook that you know other writers are writing and everything goes so quickly. You know you have Aegon coming to Westeros and then it'll say, you know, 25 years later this is happening.
Speaker 3:So, they're going to have to fill all those slots. And where are they going to start? Are they going to start when he lands at Westeros? Are they going to start when he's already going out as king? Because there's much drama that happens when he dies and the sons come, and so it's going to be interesting to see where the actual story begins. Yeah, it's going to be great to see who they cast as Aegon and Visenya and Rhaenys. Visenya is for sure, because I want to see her wield Dark Sister. I want to see her on Vag, I want to see everything, because she's going to be one of the most badass women we'll ever see on screen. So they need to make sure they get the casting correct, and you know who we want.
Speaker 3:It's the one from vikings it was funny it's a show that I've seen four episodes of, but I know she's the right person yeah, I know I agree with you.
Speaker 2:As someone that's seen like more than one season, I'll tell you that I agree with you I saw people say, oh well, she's.
Speaker 3:This actress is too old.
Speaker 2:Now I'm like so, yeah, so exactly that's a casting we would like to see, but luckily for us, the westerosi new segment that we have today actually covers casting, uh for house of the dragon. Um. So for house of the dragon, season three, two characters have finally been cast um. Firstly, charlie gordon has been cast as prince darren sargerian. Um, darren is the fourth and youngest child of king viserys and alice inower. He's a character we assumed they'd cut out after he was ignored for the entirety of season one, but they kept mentioning him in season two, so it's clear that they were actually including him, thank God, since he's a key part of the story and now he's finally been cast. And another casting that we're also glad isn't just like a mystery character as well is that of Alicent Blackwood. The actress Annie shapira has been cast as her.
Speaker 2:Aliceane blackwood, also known as black ally, was regarded as a fierce and fearless woman with an indecent way of talking. She's a skilled hunter, horse breaker and archer in this show. Technically she already would have slash should have made an appearance, because she does in like a book event that we've already seen on the show, which is the battle of the burning mill. Um, we got to glimpse of this in season two. They showed the before and after of the battle, but none of it. In the actual show, yeah, and in the books.
Speaker 2:House Blackwood sided with Team Black. However, the Blackwood's hereditary enemies, house Bracken, supported the Greens, and during the Battle of the Burning Mill, sir Amos Bracken slew Lord Samuel Blackwood in single combat but died immediately afterwards when a weirwood arrow was fired into the eye slit of his head. According to the Blackhorns, that arrow was shot by Alicene, avenging her brother's death. So that gives you a glimpse as to who she is and how really epic she is as a character. She will play a role in the character's future. I don't want to give too many book spoilers away, so I'm just going to say that yeah, that's big spoilers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but a part of her story for the books will also definitely be changed, or will likely be changed, considering some of the other changes the show on universe have made to the original story. But they made so many changes that it seemed like they could have gone as far as cutting her out. I think we talked about that in our season two coverage of house of the dragon. We assumed that they'd just ignore her, um, but I'm glad that she actually makes an appearance and that's where we're going to be getting her for season 3 and she's not just cut out. She's there and she's actually going to be in 5 out of the 8 episodes we're getting. So I know that you feel strongly about this character and storyline, tony. What do you think?
Speaker 3:Are you positive about it? Well, you just gave me some facts that I did not know, so I didn't know. I was thinking she was supposed to be in the Battle of the Burning Mill. She wasn't there. So after that she doesn't really reappear in the book until way after some.
Speaker 3:It's hard to say without spoiling, but I don't see how she fits into the season unless they're going to be going really quick with the story, which is something that I wasn't foreseeing. I wasn't foreseeing her to be so heavily involved until, maybe, season four. So now I'm thinking, okay, where are we going to get the big battle to open the season three, obviously, but then are we going to go like the to go? The timeline shifts quickly until you know what I mean Like. So now I'm like thrown off a bit. I don't know what to think. So, yeah, I was going to have to think about that later, cause now I'm just like, hmm, where are we going to go here? But anyway, I'm excited to see her going to be in the show. It would have been great to see her in the battle. Obviously, we didn't even get to see a battle, we just saw the aftermath. And yeah, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2:Hopefully it works. That's what I'll say. I think we kind of should expect the story to be a bit fast-paced, because we're only getting two more seasons of House of the Dragon and there's still a lot for them to cover. We talked about it too. Think that, um, we don't know where or how house of the dragon is exactly going to end. You know, like we I think we talked about that one of our house of the dragon related episodes where they we speculated that there are different moments where they could just end the season at. So, considering that, I think you said something like oh, they need a few episodes to cover, like after the, the typical ending point, like the story will end at a certain point, but for the events that will happen directly afterwards, that would need a few more episodes too.
Speaker 2:So I mean, considering all of that, we definitely need as many episodes as possible, and they're just like going to speed yeah, we need to have a great epilogue.
Speaker 3:We don't need a one page or like 30 minute or five second montage of that great chapter of the book. You know which I want to see?
Speaker 2:And that brings us to the end of WestRossy News for today. We will be sharing these updates in our episodes if there's anything relevant. So stay tuned, you know, episode to episode, week to week, because the more we get get these updates, the more we'll share them. Um, but back to today's episode. As I said, we're discussing episode eight of season three, titled second sons. The episode first premiered on hbo on may 19th 2013.
Speaker 2:It was written by david benioff and db weiss and it was directed by michelle mclaren, who directed the previous episode, the baron maiden fair, as well as two episodes in season four. The title of the episode second sons directly refers to the previous episode, the Baird Maiden Fair, as well as two episodes in season four. The title of the episode Second Sons directly refers to the Second Sons, the missionary company we meet in Essos. In this episode, on a looser level, it also kind of deals with the theme of Second Sons. You know, tyrion is the second son of Tywin. We see Sandor Clegane, we sun was. It's treated like one. We see sadness is also second son, so there's that kind of theme running through it in this episode. Um, I think that there were other episodes that dealt with this theme better. So for that I will say that the title likely solely refers to the second sons, because it's not really a thematic like it's not really prevalent in this episode it's just a coincidence.
Speaker 3:It's just a coincidence, we have second sons in there. But yeah, it's just a coincidence that we have second sons in there. But yeah, it's not like a layered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's not like the message or the core of the episode. We talked about that with other episodes in House of the Dragon as well. It's not a key point of the episode, but it's still nice to think about. That's what happens in this episode. First of all, a royal wedding takes place in King's Landing. Gendry arrives at Dragonstone, melisandre Stannis visits the imprisoned Dava Seaworth, samwen and Gilly camp north of the Wall and meet a dangerous foe, and Daenerys meets the mercenary company of the Second Sons before the walls of Yunkai. So let's get started. Where do you want to start?
Speaker 3:I think we should start with the beginning of the episode. Since it's so brief, we should just start there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a brief and strong opening for the episode as well.
Speaker 3:I have a question from Caden underscore Crippen regarding this opening scene. He asked do you think Arya would have killed the Hound if he wasn't awake, or would she shy away from killing him If this was season seven, Arya?
Speaker 2:Oh, that might change things. No, I'm joking. I honestly don't think that she would have.
Speaker 3:Uh, we can see that she's hesitant you know, I don't think she was ready yet. I don't think that rock would have killed him anyway. He's hard-headed, strong. He probably would have been like woozy, but after that he would have just killed her or not. I don't know if he would have killed her, because he's not that stupid. I think he wants that bargaining chip and he gives her the little story about how he saved her sister. He's like your sister would have been dead without me.
Speaker 3:You know they were going to just torture her, rape her, and I saved her. When he tells her the story that he's going to take her to the twins know, kiss her mother and brother there for a wedding she lets out this tiniest grin like oh yeah like she little grin of happiness knowing that she's going to see her, her, her family.
Speaker 2:So I thought that was kind of cute it was and when you think about it like I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first time that aria has actually heard of sansaf, like in a while yeah like she hasn't heard of her sister at all.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's like what the Hound says kind of reminds her of Sansa in a way, because I don't think that she was really thinking about her all this time. So you do see it in like Maisie Williams' eyes when Sansa's brought up, like she's like oh right, sansa, and you can kind of feel that she's concerned but also in a way relieved. But then I feel like that quickly gets taken away because she finds out that she's being taken to her family instead of being taken to King's Landing. So she's kind of forgets about Sansa again very quickly because she's happy at the idea of meeting or seeing her family again. But yeah, I do think that was kind of like a touching oh wait, right, like she's, she doesn't know where sansa's at. So that's where aria is at. But you know, last time we saw aria, or like one of the previous times with aria, she was very devastated about gendry not being there with her.
Speaker 2:Um, so let's see where gendry is at, because he doesn't make an appearance again in this episode. Uh, he and minnesota finally get to dragon stone, um, and she takes him to Stannis and Stannis immediately recognizes him as Robert, which is like a thing with Gendry. I don't know, I think it's in the show as well as the books, but I think it was in the books, I can't remember. But it's a thing with Gendry where he is supposedly like a spitting image of a young Robert that everybody is able to recognize it and that's kind of referred to in this moment because Stannis sees him and immediately says half Robert, half Leoborn. It's just like an instant he instantly recognizes that.
Speaker 2:And it's kind of like a weird moment because Melisandre kind of like convinces Stannis that you know, like we need to do this and like prep him Like he's just like a sacrificial lamb you need not show, you know, like the murder weapon and stuff. Let me pause on the Gendry stuff for a second and talk about Stannis himself, because he makes an interesting change or like takes an interesting step in this episode. After that, you know, when they talk about what they need to do with Gendry, which is to use his blood and everything, he kind of isn't so sure about the idea and goes to see Davos is practicing reading from like a kid's book that tells the story of Aegon's conquest. It's like a book that's obviously given to him by Shireen and it's so cute because he's like the Aegon and his it's just it's so cute.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like Veigar and Visenya. That's yeah, that's very cute.
Speaker 2:But yeah, stannis finally visits him and he's imprisoned him for like no real reason, honestly, and then he just looks at him, he's like oh, I'm finally saying sorry about your son, which is when he says that you kind of realize it took him that long. To me I thought it was a very fascinating scene that showed their relationship, because Davos kind of wasn't really resentful towards Stannis that much. He was kind of open to him in a way. He still recognized that that's his leader towards Stannis, that much, you know, he was like kind of open to him in a way. He was. He still recognized that that's his leader, you know. And when he kind of tells Stannis like why are you really here? Like you're here because you need my advice, I knew that the only, I'm the only one that's going to actually give you the advice and this is what it is, which is that I don't think that this like sacrifice thing with Gendry is worth it, because Gendry's innocent and Randy wasn't, and blah, blah, blah. So it was like a very interesting scene.
Speaker 2:And again, when Davos says that he's kind of like he still gives his real advice, which is that he doesn't think that Stannis should go through with this. If he was bitter or that resentful towards Stannis, he would have russed up, he would have probably put Stannis in a, he would have set him up to fail and would have told him something else. You know, I think that Davos would be capable of something like that if he had malicious intentions. But he doesn't and he actually does respect Stannis. So I thought such an interesting scene where you can see that underlying respect that they have for one another. They both recognize it and then that's why I think Stannis frees Davos in, because he knows that Teltuk doesn't have anyone other than him. He realizes that he was foolish to trap his, to imprison his most honest advisor and the most loyal person there to him.
Speaker 3:Stannis just has yes-men surrounding him and he needs somebody to put him in check. And I think Gendry was the first test for Stannis. Is he willing to compromise his morals for victory? And that's why Davos figures it out right away. He's not book learned learned, as they say, yeah, but he's savvy and he's street smart. He knows what's going on.
Speaker 3:You know, stannis, he's not a like worshiper of the Lord of the Light. He follows it because he sees it as a tactical advantage. He sees in the magic and visions. He sees that well. Maybe this can help me. He's not a zealot like Melisandre or his wife. He's just the king trying to win a war and he's willing to use this divine power to do it. And to me he came out very callous. This is just another person like everybody dies sacrificing gendry like so what? At first you're like maybe he could, davos could get silence to rethink this, but then size like no, no, he has that total vision. Do you know?
Speaker 3:This is an episode written by the dnds, because there's a lot of nudity and there's a lot of skin shown here. It seems like and for no reason I'll talk about that yeah, it's a daenerys, uh, which I thought was kind of silly but yeah, um, good scene. I will say that the torture used on gendry it's not really that bad compared to keon. I'm like, oh yeah, I have a couple leeches and I have this beautiful woman on top of me for a few minutes and then I get leeches.
Speaker 3:I'm like I guess it's not that bad compared to she can't compare um yeah, yeah, I'm just thinking, like when it comes to the torture we've seen in the show, like that's not that bad, you know, like she's not like poking his eye with a hot stick or anything, but yeah um, before we move on from stannis and co?
Speaker 2:um, I do want to say that you know when, when stannis picks up the leeches and then throws them in the fire and says the names, like the usurper, rob stark bait on great joy, joffrey brathen you know, everybody listening to this has watched the show before. So I'm trying to say it's interesting, because Stannis made a point earlier in the episode when he talks to Davos being like look, melisandre's stuff, it works and it's legit and stuff like that, and then all those names that he says they all end up dying really soon. Like Robb Stark dies very, very soon. Berengera Joy and Joffrey Bar was very, I don't know. It's like it was a good backup for what stannis was saying. And also, weirdly enough, did you catch this? Um, apparently, uh, davos. Stannis said something about like um, he's seen visions of a great battle in the snow. Yes, not so great. I don't know what stannis.
Speaker 3:So I think or maybe he's talking about when he uh, when he goes up there when he surprised the wildlings probably he took.
Speaker 2:I'll give them that.
Speaker 3:He took over the Night's Watch or Castle Black. He probably saw the battle with the wildlings, which was not really a battle at all Because, you know, they just ran over those poor free folk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but did you know that for one of the shots they actually used real leeches on the actor, on the actor, Joe Dempsey?
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I said behind the scenes like facts for this episode. Okay, now that we're done with aria and stannis, those are like two uh, kind of smaller plot points of this episode. The rest of them are kind of juicier, I guess, and I'm always having to talk about her once we go talk about dinners because I miss her and I'm talking about her I don't mind talking about her Testosterone-filled scene Meeting the second sons.
Speaker 3:What I like is that, yeah, these guys except Dario, he doesn't come off as vulgar as Miro and you know Miro treats her with outright contempt. Despite all that, daenerys remains composed, calm and dignified. She's nodding her head and it's just a neutral face. There's no happy, sad, anger, nothing. She doesn't overreact, nor she doesn't show any weakness, which is politically savvy. She does get a little peeve when they leave and she's like, yeah, well, you're going to kill him first, obviously, if it comes to that, yeah, this is Dany growing up also playing the game.
Speaker 2:She knows that showing her emotions and her anger won't work with these men. She was that way in the past and it's totally fine if she is angry and shows it because they're obviously disrespecting her. But I think she knows, like she's learning how to, I guess, maneuver and like play the game and be like okay, this, my anger, won't work in this situation. I need to play it this way, even though she was really angry.
Speaker 3:And she? She doesn't threaten them at the beginning. She offers them a deal like join her and you could receive gold. In the show they say 2,000 second sons, but in the book there's like 500. Sons, but in the book there's like 500. Actually, you know what, before we talk about the last scene with daenerys the second sons, they have a little meeting and they decide that they need. They need to get rid of her. They don't want to assassinate her. Dario is picked to kill, but anyway, before dario shows up at daenerys's tent disguised as unsullied, you have missandei helping Daenerys bathe and they're talking about how Missandei speaks. What? 19 languages or something like that. Yeah, and she starts talking Dothraki and in a non-passive-aggressive way.
Speaker 3:Missandei corrects her Dothraki and Daenerys is like what Wait, what she's trying to? She reverts back to being a beginner and she doesn't know the words. I thought that was a cool little scene. It comes to the point when I talked about nudity and you have Dario come in and his intention wasn't to kill them. Anyway, he wanted to join Daenerys, but why do you think she needed to stand up the tub?
Speaker 2:Because, as you said, it's directed by D&D. This is a dumb HBO thing where all their actresses have to be unclothed. There was no need for it. It was even before she stands up. Like it was like right there, you know what I mean. Like it was like the water level wasn't high enough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they just want to, they just want to there's no bubbles in that, so they could add to the water.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, I'm telling you.
Speaker 3:I'm like, oh, this is so season three, season six, when she that episode and I think it was her, was it a body double. She's like I'm not doing any more nudity, right, I think it was after season six, but anyway, I thought it was kind of like weird. Like okay, I'm just standing here, I'm supposed to be your leader, why am I naked? You should be naked, not me. Anyway, we opened this episode with Dario proclaiming his loyalty, or you know, to daenerys. We get to see, do we ever see him again, this, this actor, because, like I said, like I see his face and I go, wow, he, he would make a great villain in rings of power. He has that you know, evil look, and or he will make elf, or he will make a great targaryen with the blonde or silver hair.
Speaker 2:He's in three episodes in season three.
Speaker 3:Okay, so he will be in the next three, the next episode nine and ten.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tony is team this actor.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:And I'm team the next actor. I think his name is Michelle or Michael Huisman. So yeah, I'm team that guy, tony's team, this guy, this guy, as I would not mind him in all the other projects but for dario, no sorry, I'm one of those people that hate, uh, when I see people go oh, this person, uh, like like all that discourse with bella ramsey, oh, she doesn't look like like Ellie.
Speaker 3:And I go well, you have a really good actress. Do we care about the look? Or we care about the acting ability? Like, what do we really care about? Do we want somebody who looks like the the video game version and sucks as an actor, or you know what I mean? Like so, and here I am going wow, he's, he's perfect for this and is he really a good actor? But he will. He'll be great at this.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I'm a hypocrite yeah, um, I think that's it for danny, though, right, like I can talk about her forever, but like that's, uh, it's for him in this episode. And I think we can move on to, um, king's landing and what's going down there, because a big event is taking place in King's Landing. It's a royal wedding. It's Tyrion and Sansa's wedding, and it's also one of the most uncomfortable things that we have to see in Game of Thrones. So this is the scene that we get before the actual wedding, where Tyrion and Sansa have a discussion, I think one of their only conversations that they've ever had on screen before.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is like one of their first or I think probably their second or third competition we've seen on screen, because we have that one conversation that they have had in season two when Tyrion's kind of proud of Sansa, when Sansa was like playing the game and being like she acted as though she was supporting Joffrey, but Tyrion could see right through it and he's like a nice sweet kind of scene between them because tyrian's just like, in a way, he's like I'm sorry, you know, like I'm sorry that this is happening to you.
Speaker 2:That's kind of like, indirectly, what he's telling her and, um, he like he promises her and tries to make sure that you know like I'll never hurt you, you're safe in my hands, and I think that what he's telling her here and that like um concern that you can see in his, in his lines, is something that's uh prevalent in tyrian's inner monologue, ever like in the books, ever since he like this plot point uh is brought up, ever since it's brought up that tyrian is likely going to have to marry sansa.
Speaker 2:It's like it's mentioned countless times that he feels like kind of guilty, I don't know, or like he feels a certain way about it, like it's not, it's not like we don't. We get it once or twice. Like I remember when I was listening to the audiobook it was like I don't know, like tyrian's thoughts on this we also get in the previous episode, but uh, I just I don't know. I like seeing it's vocalized directly to sansa here as well, because I felt like I was in his head for a while in the box I absolutely adore how tender and respectful tyrian is towards sansa.
Speaker 3:He's trying his best to make her feel comfortable in this unwinnable situation for the both of them. He doesn't want to be there, he doesn't want to do anything. I mean, when they get to the room, sansa looks like she's 14, even though she's not 14, and the hairdo they give her makes her look even younger, like that's a hairdo that you have for a preteen or just a teen. It shows that even in this brutal world, tyrian's decency is something that shown and I I really like that he has his tenderness towards her.
Speaker 3:My father says I have to consummate, but you know what the way he says after is so good. I won't repeat it here because you know I have a lady in front of me, uh. But yeah, I will go back to the beginning because we're not talking about one another in the bedroom. But peter dinklage is just the way he can. He has that. I. I want to protect you face and I am here for you and I'm trying my best to be respectful and and I'm I'm. I'm not that I'm a lannister, but I'm not, I'm a lannister you can trust. Let me just say the last line, because she. She just says he says I will not share your bed until you ask me to, right. And she says what if I don't want you to? And he says so my watch begins.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that was a nice, that was like funny.
Speaker 1:Ease the tension.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I wanted to say something actually about that beginning scene as well, the pre-wedding conversation. It's like a kind of Easter egg In that scene in her room before the wedding. You see a doll next to Sansa's mirror.
Speaker 2:Yes, I don't know if you got't know, yeah yeah, it was the doll that ned gave to her in season three of episode one, um, and she was, like, I'm too old to play with dolls at that time, um but now yeah, and now that I feel like we see it in that episode and we see it now, one episode three and then season three, episode eight, to me seeing that doll again, this one before her wedding, kind of bookends sansa's childhood or like her girlhood, like that's it. Sansa's not a girl anymore after this, she's, she becomes a woman and like that's kind of supposed to be. Like, yeah, she becomes a woman because she's getting married, but at the same time it's like no, like this is where, like, sansa's life will really change and she's, I don't know, like she's seen more as a woman after this point, you know, like she's gonna she's seen that way by the finger, even more so now, and like by society, like she's, like that's it. They. They don't consider her a child anymore. So I thought that was like a bittersweet detail.
Speaker 2:Um, and about the wedding itself you know you talked about it. Um, it was kind of a hard watch for me, like the wedding and then the dinner party and even after, even though Tyrion was a gentleman afterwards and you know he didn't like force her into anything, which I thought was, you know, in line with his character and as he, as he should, you know he did the right thing, said the right thing. The actual like dinner and the wedding was really hard. Watch for me. You know. We have that moment with Joffrey taking down the stool that Tyrion would have used to place the cape over Sansa to humiliate him and her. And then you have the dinner feast when you have Joffrey threatening Sansa, you have Tyrion being drunk and obviously not wanting to be there. You have the sadness in Sansa's eyes because this is someone that's been dreaming of her wedding her entire life.
Speaker 2:We see it in the season as well, you know, when she fantasizes about doris, like you can see all of that like um, like fantasy that she has in her, in her mind, like you can see it on sophie turner's performance, because I don't know you just this is that's what sansa. She's always talking about marrying a nice, noble prince, and you just see that this isn't the outcome for her, that that she would have wanted, and you can see that she's not happy and she's humiliated as well. But she's mature enough to like, know that she like to be, to be the way that she is about it. She's not like like she was, like she's a prisoner, basically in this horse, and it won't do her any good to like protest or or scream or, and she can't run away at the same time, so she's like acting like a real woman here.
Speaker 2:Um and uh, yeah, I just it was like a hard. It was a hard, hard watch for me. And then you know he sees tyrian acting overly drunk when, uh, after, he threatens joffrey, and then they have to kind of like ease the situation, you know when joffrey's like oh, now the bedding ceremony, and then yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But before that I'm gonna say, before that you have a moment where I don't know if it was Cersei trying to shield Sansa or just making sure that Joffrey doesn't make a mess of himself, because she just says, oh, why don't you spend time with your bride-to-be? Because she knew when he got up that he was going to torture Sansa or Tyrion. Can you stop being a douchebag for a second. Stop having this gleefulness and bringing discomfort or pain or suffering to people. Stop, just like, sit down and just be normal for a second. But we're all over the place with this, because I want to go back to before the wedding, because it's a great scene which I'm just going to play for you. I don't even care if it's a minute and 20 seconds. It's Cersei.
Speaker 3:We've talked about Cersei and Margaery a lot this season, covering season three, how Cersei is just biting her tongue when it comes to Margaery. Margaery is just so charming and mother Cersei cannot deal with her. When it comes to Margaery Margaery is this so charming and mother Cersei cannot deal with her. But here it's like she reached that boiling point. That's it, the tea's ready or the water's ready. She goes. They talk about the reigns of Castamere, which is like okay let's just listen to it because it's great.
Speaker 1:A better dancer than a singer, I'm afraid. Oh, but you know the song, the Reigns of Castamere. Of course they play it so often here at court. So you know the story of House Reign of Castamere Not as well as you, I'm sure. House Reign was a powerful family, very wealthy, the second wealthiest in Westeros. Aren't the Tyrells the second wealthiest family in Westeros.
Speaker 1:Now, of course, ambitious climbers don't want to stop on the second highest rung. If only you could take that final step. You'd see further than all the rest. You'd be alone with nothing but blue sky above you. So Lord Rhaen built a castle as grand as Casterly Rock. He gave his wife diamonds larger than any my mother ever wore and finally, one day, he rebelled against my father. Do you know where House Raine is now Gone? Gone, a gentle word, why not say slaughtered Every man, woman and child put to the sword. I remember seeing their bodies hanging high above the gates of Casterly Rock. My father, let them rot up there all summer. It was a long summer, and now the rains we've owed their halls and not a soul to hear. If you ever call me sister again, I'll have you strangled in your sleep.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the best part about this scene is that the whole time she's listening to Cersei pretty much threatening her and her family. She's walking arm in arm and she's looking out to the crowd and nodding and smiling to people looking at her, and then she turns to Cersei and gets serious. It's just great acting.
Speaker 2:It's such a great scene. Honestly, I think it shows both of their characters really well. You said that about Margaie and then Cersei being like I'll have you strangled in your sleep, but it's so funny. And what I think adds to it is, you know, maw and Marjorie kind of just turned and chatted and was like we're going to be sisters. After that, when they were walking down the stairs you see Loras in the just want to jump a little bit in the wedding between him and cersei. It's like 60 seconds not even.
Speaker 3:It was like he said three words. He's like shut up and she just left for something. I don't want to hear it it was gold.
Speaker 2:It was gold. I love it.
Speaker 3:It was so funny that's just cersei, back to herself like she's yeah she's not dealing with it anymore. She knows well, she knows that she's not going to marry this guy. I wanted to ask you a question about this scene. I'm going to put the audio of I don't know, just one more audio of Tywin putting a stop to the bedding ceremony. I just love Tywin Lannister. I mean I love Charles Dance, not Tywin Lannister. I just love Tywin Lannister.
Speaker 1:I mean I love Charles Dance, not Tywin Lannister. What did you say? I believe we can dispense for the bedding. Your Grace, I'm sure Tyrion did not mean to threaten the king. A bad joke, your Grace, Made out of envy of your own royal manhood. Mine is so small my poor wife won't even know I'm there. Your uncle is clearly quite drunk. Your Grace, I am guilty, but it is my wedding night. My tiny drunk cock and I have a job to do Come with. I vomited on a girl once in the middle of the act, not bad of it, but I think honesty is important between a man and wife, don't you agree?
Speaker 1:come, I'll tell you all about it.
Speaker 3:Put you in the mood hey, my question is to you. We talked about Tywin young Tywin in our Mad King episode and what he had to deal with in his own wedding night with his own wife sour? Is that sour memory of the bedding ceremony that included joanna, his wife, and the mad king? We don't know what happened, it's just rumors. Do you think that is? This is why he's like okay, we're done, we're not doing this, or? Is this, you know, is that any correlation or length?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, when I saw the scene as I said, it's been a while since I've seen this episode. I don't really remember it, that's what. So when I saw him refuse, I was like, oh wait, yeah, I feel like there's a, there's like a another reason for that. Like you don't see tyrian sorry, we don't see Tywin defending Tyrion normally, and I don't think that he's doing that. He wouldn't do that for Tyrion or Sansa. He could do it to save face in front of all those people, but at the same time, he would have found a different way if it didn't hit close to home for him. It was a bit too much, I think, for Tywin. It definitely brought back the memory of what happened to tywin, um, during his his wedding.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, a few, and if you don't know what we're talking about, like, we gave you just like a brief idea of what possibly might have happened. That's how it was. Anyways, if you want to know more details, please check out our mad king episode, because it was a really good episode and we love doing those historical deep dives as well. So we talk about it then and I think it's in one of our theory episodes, I think. Check it out, check out all our previous episodes actually, but yeah.
Speaker 3:I hope that answers your question, Tony.
Speaker 3:And also I read something that said is Tywin might be preventing. By stopping the bedding ceremony, he might be preventing further shame, not out of compassion, necessarily, but because it would make a political farce out of an already delicate situation. It's a combination it's embarrassing to see. See, this is your son, even though he's a, you know you, you hate him. He's still the carries, the name of Lannister, he's the face of a Lannister. You can't have him be like this. Acted like a buffoon there. Still, it could have been worse if allowed to that ceremony to continue. And what is this? The ceremony is that they people get to watch.
Speaker 2:I, I forgot I forgot about until I was uh listening to I think was it the red wedding, and then that was like happening with edmure and I was like, oh wait, what? Like I forgot that this was a part of george's world, I think. Basically, like men undress the bride and then women undress the groom and then they kind of like put them in a room I don't know if people follow them in there, but I don't know, that's a big part of it's where.
Speaker 2:Like oh, okay yeah, like the opposite gender takes like the bride slash groom to, like they undress them and then take them to to like a room, which is so weird because like aren't they, aren't they scared of what would happen to the bride? Like anything could happen to her on the way there, with like a bunch of men who would trust a woman with that many men doing that to her? Like that's horrible, I don't know, that's so weird, but whatever.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking of Braveheart, oh I didn't watch that movie. Where you know the lords would take a bride, a new bride, and bed her first before the husband. And that's what I did not watch that movie yeah, joffrey pretty much wanted to do that, saying oh, after my, my uncle passes out, I'll be there yeah, that was like a nasty detail from joffrey, like he was literally threatening to do something horrible.
Speaker 2:It's a crime. I don't want to say the word, you know, but that was disgusting. And we get another disgusting scene with this moment with Joffrey. He escorted her in place of Ned, which is horrible because he's the man that killed her father, you know, when he was walking her down the aisle and Sansa wasn't happy about that, so she took that to him. I I don't know if she said anything to him or if he just brought up the conversation and he was like yeah, I'm here because I'm the father of the Ren. It's just disgusting. He says that like he has such a slimy aura in this episode. It was like they want to remind us, like, oh, I just think it's just, we haven't gotten on your nerves that much lately. Let me know you so much in this episode it's like oh, I hate him.
Speaker 3:King's Landing in these first four seasons is always great, especially with the ladders. You're always going to get well-acted scenes and great dialogue and great moments.
Speaker 2:I think that's all that we have for King's Landing, so we actually just have one more character or one more group to visit and that's pretty much it for this episode. But the last people, or like the last scene that we're going to talk about, is a very, very important scene in the overall context of game of thrones, and that's the scene that we get in this episode between sam and gilly. So towards the very end you see that sam and gilly kind of make camp and take refuge. It's an abandoned, destroyed cabin beyond the wall. They're still there fighting their further lives and we hear like these crows squawk and like make these noises throughout the scene. And even when they're talking you know they talk about names for Gideon's baby and Gideon's like oh, I don't know any names for boys and they talk about it she has all Craster yeah, craster, like that's the only boy name I know, and then I don't know what I forgot, what brings it up?
Speaker 2:And then Sam talks you know like, oh, my father's name, oh, no, they're talking about like last names and first names and Sam was like okay, like my, my name is Samuel Tarly, my father's name is Randall Tarly.
Speaker 2:And then she goes oh, that's a handsome name, randall. And then moments where they're kind of like connecting, because then she says like, oh, is your father crude like mine? Um, it's like this weak moment between them, but it's interrupted by, um, like a bunch of those crows making their noises of squawking I think that's that's the word for the noise that they make so they go outside to investigate and then that's when they the white talker pushing them and immediately getting it was that's after her child. That's like her mother's intuition and she knows, obviously, like what they do with with the baby boys. Um, like she's not an idiot like she.
Speaker 3:She she says it right away oh he's, he's here for the yeah. So yeah, it's. It's kind of and it's a I like the design of the white walker. It still wasn't like perfected, but it was kind of cool because he had god. When did he I I forget, I'm sorry when when did I thought that he killed the White Walker with his sword? Because he does have a Valyrian steel sword. What's it called Heartsbane? Is it called Heartsbane?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but doesn't he get it later? Why doesn't he have it now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I thought he had it on him.
Speaker 2:It's called Heartsbane.
Speaker 3:Okay, did Jorah have it? No, he gives it on him. It's called Hardspan. Okay, did Jorah have it? No, he gives it to Jorah in the end, he steals it from his father's house. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the seasons, one of the later seasons.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, I think it's season six when he goes back to. I'm confused. He had Hardspan, the ancestral sword of his house. Had Hardsbane, the ancestral sword of his house, that's when they go visit his father in season six. On their way to Old Town. Old Town, what is it called, though, to be? What is the place?
Speaker 2:The Maester Place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, the Maester Place. The Maester Place, that's, that's where they, they go up to the citadel yeah, citadel, there you go. And where does he live? I forget his hometown. Hornham there you go. That's when they go. They're riding on their way to the citadel. That's when he steals Heartbane and he gives it to Jorah in Season 8. Anyway, so this is a big part of the story, of the overall story we have at this point of the series. How many times have we seen a White Walker Like three?
Speaker 2:Maybe four. Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 3:So this is maybe the fourth time we've seen one. Uh, well, john saw one in season two, right, but it didn't really attack. This is the first time we see like a white walker attacking somebody. Uh, we saw one in season one in the first, the prologue of the series, but yeah, we just see them coming up behind somebody and chopping their head off. These people are invincible. How can you kill them? Obviously, we get to see that dragonglass and then it won't be for another four seasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, imagine.
Speaker 3:But it was a cool moment. It was like, oh man, this is how we get to defeat the one true enemy we have for the whole, the whole world. Good scene, good, uh uh.
Speaker 2:Sound visuals of the crows are very loud yeah, it's such an epic scene honestly, if you think about, because no one would expect sam. So this is like pure drama. No one would expect sam to, yes, be the one to kill White Walker first on screen. You'd be like, of course it's John. If not John, egret, you know. Or if not, egret probably would have expected it from George RR Martin or what's his name, torment or something like that. You would have never expected it to be Sam. Sam never would have expected it to be Sam. Nobody in the show. So that's the fact that it's him is so significant, and so it's part of what makes Game of Thrones so epic. Like we never expected Ned to die, we would never expect this coming even though it seems like a minor thing, like yeah, okay the person the
Speaker 2:character died, it's like. No, this changes the trajectory of what they knew about the White Walkers. He uses a dragging glass to kill White Walkers and that's what, what like, says the president, makes them all understand what to find. He gets rid of them and gets rid of this threat and what can defeat them, because they're so like, like, undefeatable. You know it was a word, but you know what I mean and we know that because of Sam and because of Sam's bravery, and it's something that can't be like, ignored, and Sam you have this character who's awkward, scared and mocked relentlessly throughout, and he becomes the literal savior when it counts.
Speaker 2:Of the run, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so why don't we go to our favorite scene of the episode?
Speaker 2:My scene probably is the Sam scene. Like I love so many things, like so many little moments, that scene with Marjorie and Cersei and Cersei and Loras. It's so funny, but I would say it's the Sam scene.
Speaker 3:I would say that too, but I'm going to give Cersei and the Marjorie scene Not equal billing, but like 1A, 1b. I just love Cersei Just giving it to Marjorie. The performances are just so great, so I'm going to say that All right. So how about your rating for episode 8 of season?
Speaker 2:3? Maybe like an 8.5. I feel like I'm giving it 8.5 to a lot this season, but 8.5, I can't think of anything.
Speaker 3:What do you think it has on IMDb?
Speaker 2:I know what it has on IMDb.
Speaker 3:Okay, it says 8.9, which is very high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, too high.
Speaker 3:I think it's too high. In my mind I'm thinking well, you know that much happens this. We don't see that many characters. I was thinking like an 8.3, 8.4, um, but I'm just gonna do 8.5. I think 8.9 or 9 is way too high. And you know, next two episodes we're gonna be in the nines, for sure yeah, whether we like it or not and that's going to be a wrap on the 69th episode of dancing with dragons.
Speaker 3:For our 70th episode, brace yourselves because we're diving into one of the most shocking moments in all of westerosi history the red wedding. If you're enjoying our journey through the seven kingdoms, be sure to subscribe, leave a review or share the podcast with your fellow lords and ladies. You can follow us on Instagram at dancingwith__dragons, for updates, theories and more. Until next time, peace out.
