Dancing with Dragons

Game of Thrones: S3 | EP6 "The Climb"

Dancing with Dragons Season 3 Episode 67

We continue our journey, looking back at Game of Thrones Season 3, Episode 6. In this episode titled "The Climb", a political chess match intensifies as four houses negotiate alliances through marriages. At the same time, Jon and the wildlings face a perilous climb up the Wall, all underscoring Littlefinger's chilling philosophy that "chaos is a ladder.

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Speaker 1:

Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over till we forget that it's a lie. But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Chaos, a gaping pit waiting to swallow us all. Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail never get to try again. The fall breaks them and some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm or the gods, or love Illusions. Only the latter is real. The climb is all there is.

Speaker 2:

Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire universe. No-transcript that episode. Life kind of got in the way for both tony and me with some personal stuff, busy schedules sort of snuck up on us, those busy schedules. But we're back and we're finally ready to jump into today's episode. Today we'll be picking up where we left off, continuing season three's discussion with episode six, the Climb.

Speaker 2:

The episode first premiered on HBO on May 5th 2013, and it was written by our amazing showrunners David Benioff and DB Weiss, and it was directed by Alex Sakharov. Sakharov was the director of photography for season one of Thrones, but he also directed the season two episode, what is Dead May Never Die, and he would go on to direct the season four episodes the Laws of Gods and Men and Mockingbird. In today's episode, tywin plans unions for the Lannisters, melisandre visits the Riverlands, rob wants to repair his alliance with House Frey Rose, bolton makes a decision about Jamie Lannister and, in total, four houses consider make or break alliances, all while John Ygritte and the Wildlings face a formidable climb. And let's get started, tony, how are you? Are you okay?

Speaker 3:

I'm doing okay. I wanted to let the listeners know that every time you hear minwa say our amazing showrunners, I see her eyes. They're rolling yep the sarcasm is brilliant, but uh yeah, um no doing. Well, I'm happy to be recording, therapeutic in a way after the last few weeks, so I'm happy to be back here and I wanted to add, uh to our amazing showrunners that I did read that this episode, according to them, marked the turning point where the game shifts from battles and rebellion to pure psychological warfare.

Speaker 2:

When review was seeing the episode of remembering it, it does make sense it does make sense when you said that my first like instinct was to sorry but argue and be like, which was always that way. But they never understood it. But I don't think that it's that um like it is true because you know, we did like for seasons one and two. One was mainly just ned's story kind of. You know, everything was kind of happening in the background of that, except for danny's story. And then for season two it was about Blackwater. It didn't feel, as I guess, to use their word psychological or manipulative, and planning and scheming. All of that did exist, but it wasn't really at the forefront, I think, until now. So, yeah, that makes sense, even though my first instinct was to argue with them about their own show. So, sorry about that. But yeah, please, please, go on.

Speaker 3:

When doing my notes for this episode, I come up with a lot of articles and like on the wiki, like of people saying that this was like the not the worst episode, but the least favorite of people. And I watching this episode and going what are they talking about? This is a really good episode. This episode and going what are they talking about? This is a really good episode. This is the scheming and the plotting and felt like every scene almost was pushing the story.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know some amazing scenes in this episode it is a pivoted point, as they said, and does kind of move the story along. But I think that there are also some like details in this episode that probably should have been, should have come back into play, um in the future of game of thrones, and I will uh touch on that point again later on the episode. But I'm gonna start off, uh, with this point as well um with sam and gilly. So they're beyond the wall, you know, we saw them skipping. Craster's creep, creep, craster's, creep, craster's keep.

Speaker 3:

No, actually that's better.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he is a creep, yeah so we saw them escape craster the creep. Um, and basically sam and gillia are camping and he shows her the dragon glass dagger that he found at the fists of the first man and basically talks about castle black and that dragon class dagger. Like it does come into play later on, but I'm gonna get into this when we eventually talk about season eight, like it was never as central to the story as I wanted it to be, because it just goes nowhere. Um, so I, I like it's one of those bittersweet details that's included because, like, like, thank you for including it, I just wish you did something with it.

Speaker 2:

Um, but yeah, so that's where sam is, he's safe with gilly and the baby, and the wilding party, led by torment, continue to scale the wall and prepare their daunting climb, you know, and egret kind of tells john that she kind of senses that he's still loyal to the night's watch. I don't like, I feel like he kind of feels relieved but scared at the same time, because it's like oh, then she still loves me, then this is true love and maybe I will get like happily ever after. But at the same time it's like, you know, he knows that it's impossible, because then what's he gonna do now? He has the love of his life, but his duty is like coming into play. More than ever, his duty is the night's watch.

Speaker 3:

He has to stay he has to stay with him. He has to betray her. You ever seen those comedy shows or movies where somebody's trying to figure out what to do and then the devil appears on one shoulder and then the angel and they're trying to convince someone what to do? That's John. Like I love her, but in loving her I'm going to betray my brothers. Yeah, but I wanted to go back to Sam and I just, I just want to say that he's one of those innocent and kind souls, that I just love Sam and he's so accommodating to Gilly and it's probably because he's in love.

Speaker 2:

He's smitten.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, he's smitten, that's perfect. I wanted to say that I might be mistaken, but I think this is the first time we hear about the actual dimensions of the wall, like he was telling her oh, it's 700 foot wide, it's made of ice. Then I think this is the first time we hear him talk about where he's from, because then she's like oh, I knew you were highborn like all our servants and this and you know what, back when, I was younger, as a child I think he says something in season one but we don't really know, like where he's from, like he's you know house Tarly and all that stuff.

Speaker 3:

So I do like that scene. It was quite nice to see them just relaxing and it wasn't a quick, it was like four or five minutes scene With Jon and Ygr egret like I love egret saying I'm your woman now you're loyal to me. Forget about everybody else so I thought it was a great she's. Uh, what do you call the spitfire?

Speaker 2:

yeah, well, she's kissed by fire. That's what I said of the last episode, wasn't it so?

Speaker 3:

but I think that the scenes of the climbing is very well done. It's full of tension, suspense, action. You have somebody who was willing to basically try to murder them in the wall. I forget the guy's name, the guy who was at work.

Speaker 2:

Oral.

Speaker 3:

Oral yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's pretty much trying to kill them and saying not to save them. But when you think about it, when you're climbing a wall that high, you're going to have to make some tough choices. And well, better you than me, I guess.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, better like the crow than any of the others.

Speaker 3:

And I also want to point out, with the music. I mean the music is one of the best things about the show, but it really, it really elevates. You know the climbing elevate, uh the scene.

Speaker 2:

So the scene with Sam was brief, but we also get another very brief moment with Bran in the North. But just before we move on to anywhere else in Westeros um, we don't really get much in the scene we see Jojen experiencing a seizure. You know he's still with them on their journey, uh, and Mir explains that you know this is because Jojen has visions, the same way Bran does, and Jon tells Jojen tells Bran that in his vision he saw Jon on the wrong side of the wall, surrounded by enemies. That's basically it. Um, of course there's no context there. So Bran at this point doesn't know, like Jon's story and story and like that he's undercover and he's probably just concerned and that's it really.

Speaker 3:

That's it for Bran and Jojo. I do have in the scene we have Mira and Osha just bickering back and forth. Which? Is kind of funny Like oh, you don't know how to use a knife, you know. It's just like back and forth trying to like one-up each other in insults and brand is all. Please, please, just get together. Everybody, love each other. We have one mission, one goal. We can't be fighting and all that.

Speaker 2:

It's always nice to have like those moments of levity in Game of Thrones, because we need it.

Speaker 3:

And just you have like Hodor, hodor, hodor. Like he's like calm down everybody. That was just the same. Calm down as well. He's like I don't like confrontation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then you have this going on right, like this kind of lights not that serious moment but then also happening somewhere in the runes, which I don't like talking about is a very, very dark moment, which proves why we need kind of lightheartedness in Game of Thrones 2, which is what's going on with Theon, and what do you have to say about that? I think I made a promise at the beginning of Season 3 that it's just very hard for me to talk about Theon and what he's going through this season because I can barely watch his scenes.

Speaker 3:

So I can't. I thought about, which I told you or we started recording.

Speaker 3:

Is that when watching this episode, this episode, this scene with Theon and Ramsey, who has not been revealed- yet to us it reminded me of the Dark Knight, with Alfred telling you know, batman or Bruce Wayne saying that some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. Ramsey, he's like there's nothing you can offer him to say, oh please, I'll give you this. I'll tell you that he's like you have nothing to negotiate with. I just want to see you cry and be in pain and I want to torture you. It's just like next level sadistic. You know, he says. The only reason I'm torturing you is because I enjoy it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's being evil for the sake of being evil.

Speaker 3:

There's nothing to accomplish in in torturing him, this man, and he's just like. I'm just going to do it because I like it, which I laugh because it's so scary and it's like okay I laugh because it's scary and then you have another scene. Towards the end we have another sadistic monster who will parallel each other, one in the north, one in the south, with joffrey, and we'll get to that when we get to the king's landing portion but yeah, I will get back to it then.

Speaker 2:

But like I was gonna say that joffrey, like you can at least somewhat blame it on his genetics and his stuff, like that. You know, like there there is some like yeah, and like maybe understandable, like small point with ramsey, it's for the sake of being even nothing else, like but can you think about ramsey's childhood?

Speaker 3:

I mean, I'm sure he he was poor, he had to, you know, scavenge for any kind of thing. His father wasn't there because he's quote a bastard, so he probably didn't have a great upbringing as well. That's what it led him to be, so him.

Speaker 2:

And that's really it from the North for this episode. So let's head to the Riverlands and see where Arya's at. You're a witch, you're, so let's head to the Riverlands and see where Arya is at. I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I do agree that was pivotal, but also included details that went nowhere, and that Melisandre scene was a detail that went nowhere. That's what I was referring to when she says that Arya, she sees in Arya's eyes, the eyes of many others. Okay, she might have seen that Arya will use that ability or that she will have that ability, but it kind of went nowhere. Or that she would have that ability, but it kind of went nowhere and it kind of was barely a thing. After season seven. Season eight, I think, was when it was nothing After she killed the Freys. That was it.

Speaker 3:

Well, she did kill the Night King. He has blue eyes.

Speaker 2:

Oh, whatever, whatever, it should have never been her.

Speaker 3:

That's one of those things where people say, oh, this is a great foreshadowing, and I'm thinking B&B, they were not that far ahead. This was like 2014, 2015. And that was four years from the, or maybe five years from the actual ending of the show. And remember that George was still a part of the process during this season and the next. So it's just a coincidence that she says you'll be shutting blue eyes and that they have her, unless they went back and go. Well, you know what would be so amazing If Arya came. I came because you know Melisandre says she's going to shut blue eyes.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, they didn't even do that effort, I'm telling you. They just said you know what's going to. What was their dumb phrase, sorry, which was like what will subvert expectations? That's what they used. No-transcript time. She speaks in this episode and she says something that really goes anywhere. Of course that's melissandra. All the time she says this is going to happen, that's going to happen, and nothing ever happens, um, which of course is commentary. We should get to in another episode, um, like a deep dive into the lord of lights, uh, religion, or to melisandre, but, um, something that she says also that goes nowhere is actually so funny that I wrote lol in my notes. She tells gendry, you will make kings rise and fall. Okay, okay, okay, melisandre, he really will. I guess he will. I don't know what's gonna do in another universe, in your delululand, but whatever, um, but there's something actually it sounds, it sounded good it sounds good.

Speaker 2:

Sounds good doesn't mean anything, um, but there's something actually that she says that I kind of forgot if it was a detail or not, because I can't recall anything. But when she kind of meets the brotherhood and she speaks to Thoros, she tells him, like what happened about the mission to convert Roberts to the Lord of Light's religion? And he was like, oh, he failed or whatever. But was that a thing? I don't remember that.

Speaker 3:

No, because we see Beric for I think half a second and I think it's when Ned is on the Iron Throne and he's demanding the Mountain's Head for treason and he sends Beric to find, and that's pretty much it what we learned about Beric. We don't know about any plot of him Because we don't mean Thoros of season three, so we don't know about them trying to convert Robert or anybody in the council to the Lord of Light. But I do like that, this scene with Melisandre she just shows up, which is a show invention, just to add. It's the first time High Verian has was identified as such.

Speaker 3:

This low valerian was kind of the plot point of now. His watches ended with denaris and it was just simply referred to as valerian. So this is the first time you see somebody they're talking in an extended dialogue. It's also the first time that the Valyrian, Valar Margulis, is given its proper response Valar Dohaeris on screen. So neither term is translated in subtitles, however, and we all both know one is all men must die and Valar Dohaeris is all men must serve. So that's the first time we hear people say it to each other, and I think we also hear it in the end of season four, when Arya gets on the boat and she has the coin and she tells the captain of the ship, Valamorgulus, and he looks at the coin and he goes Valado Jarez.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

So I may be mistaken, so don't quote me on that. I'm just remembering that scene. Yeah is another.

Speaker 2:

I remember it that way too, so don't worry okay yeah, it's, it's funny.

Speaker 2:

I have another note about minisandra that I that just popped up too, which is that you know she is kind of saying one of these not like kind of weightless foreshadowing moments, but uh, what I think is funny to see kind of in this episode, or at least in this moment, was that we kind of see her uh get jealous or like kind of gets offended because she kind of discovers, you know, okay, she knows that Thoros is of the same religion as her and he's kind of like a priest where she's a priestess, um, but she finally finds out about Beric Dondarrion and how he's died six times and like been revived seven times. And she gets jealous from Thoros a little bit, saying that you should not have that kind of power. And I like seeing that. I think melissandra kind of needed that like um, that like embarrassment or humiliation a little bit, just because she's been so drunk on power, you know, like recently, you know with sanis and everything she's just been so like she thinks she's she's untouchable.

Speaker 2:

So I think that she kind of needed to come back down to earth a little bit, and that was a nice moment to see.

Speaker 2:

But I like Thoris' answer too, which was basically saying that it's not that he's favored by the Order of Light, it's that he only gives favors when he deems it fit to do that. He could have just not answered. But let's move on from Arya to her sibling, her older rob, who's also in the riverlands, not too far away, um, but rob, as I mentioned the beginning of the episode, he is still there trying to like salvage his plan, even though at this point it's already like he's already lost. You know, we that's what I mentioned in previous episodes um, but he's trying to salvage any kind of ally or like relationship that he can. And of course this is the like when you say make or break. He thinks this is the make or break one and obviously we know it's going to be the break one that's going to like solidify kind of his fate, which is him trying to repair his alliance with a phrase, unfortunately, and it's funny that the guys, guys, no shade to them.

Speaker 3:

I'm sure they're great actors, but they look like they're Freys.

Speaker 2:

No shade to them. And then you say that when the Freys are supposed to be like this really ugly house, that everybody wants to avoid a marriage they embody house Frey.

Speaker 3:

Oh my God. I do want to say something about Edmure, because people say oh he's so annoying, but I I I kind of get where he's coming from in this episode and this when, yeah, when he refuses to marry the, the yeah he's being forced to marry some random freak out just because rob couldn't keep it together and I I do.

Speaker 3:

I found this quote from thailand I think it's thailand, or maybe it was tyrian. They says in westeros the battlefield wins glory, but the marriage bed, that the council chamber and the dining hall, that's where kings are broken, which is kind of nice. Of of just the the politicking, is where everything could be like. You can do all you want in the battlefield, you could be the strongest, whatever, but when it comes to actually losing or winning, you have to figure out a way to compromise and not be so hard-headed as Rob wants to be when it comes to certain things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's true's true.

Speaker 3:

Right, you know rob stark, he's a badass in battle, but off the he's kind of messy. He's trying to keep people together, which is hard enough, and then he goes and chops off car stark's head and screws their alliance and then he falls for the cute. I mean, come on it, just it gets. It gets progressively annoying to watch these episodes where Rob has so much promise.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I will play the devil's advocate just for a little bit and just share the flip side of everything that you mentioned. So for Rob it does get annoying side of everything that you mentioned. So for rob it does get annoying and I think it's more annoying on screen than it is in the book because rob is still a teenager.

Speaker 2:

He's like 15 at that age. You know what I mean. I don't know if they mention this. I think they do in the book, so I'm not 100% sure because obviously they won't use this exact words. But he's like kind of at that age where you know your hormones are, you know, out of whack. He a teenager. So if a teenager would do this, you kind of would expect it from them. You know what I mean, like being rebellious and being like no, I don't need your alliance, I can do it by myself. You know that kind of stubbornness and you know falling for a girl and just insisting on marrying her because she's the love of your life when really she's not Like it's. It's the dumbest decision that he'd ever make. It's very much giving teenage Rob and I just don't think it helps the TV adaptation because Richard Madden looks older than 15. He looks like 28.

Speaker 2:

So that's why it gets really frustrating with Rob, I think. But yeah, it's like for me it's kind of understandable, even though it is very annoying, because obviously I love the Starks and I didn't want his fate to end up the way that it will and about, and I didn't want his fate to end up the way that it will. Um and about Edmure, like I know you're like, oh okay, but it's like who would want to marry a fray girl and he's being forced into this. Um, like I understand, obviously it's a bad thing, but he is also like this is his a form of punishment for him, because he's the one that kind of got Rob into a big mess that's like kind of led them to lose the battle of the Blackwater.

Speaker 2:

Like if it wasn't for Edmure, Stannis would have been on the Iron Throne already, which is an insane butterfly effect Like please go back to our, to our previous episodes and listen to our explanation and deep dive on how we broke that down, Because it's insane, Like yeah, like Ed, he deserves this.

Speaker 2:

Like what's he going to do? And he's just going to get married to a noble house? Like that's not a punishment for someone that messed up that badly? And the thing is, he's not even going to marry for my sins, uncle. It's not fair or right and I'll remember it, which just reminded me of you saying about how he screwed up in the mill.

Speaker 3:

The Blackfish is all well, this is your reward for your great victory at the mill, like sarcastically, and he basically gets up and threatens him like you're going to do this or else you know, gives him the ultimatum. And what's really surprising is I don't know if you were surprised, and after the fact I go wait a minute Catelyn didn't say one word in the episode. She was just sitting there.

Speaker 3:

I don't know if because the Frey guys were there or she was embarrassed or you know what I mean like it felt kind of odd for her not to say anything or give any kind of a advice or opinion I think it is off, like or odd, but I can't help but wonder if this is again.

Speaker 2:

it could just be dnd not including her, but um, I think it can also be seen as cat's kind of giving up her cell phone.

Speaker 2:

You know, on like she's like. You know what, every time I opened my mouth or I did something, it turned out to be the wrong thing or it led to something bad. I'm gonna stay quiet and I kind of not be a part of it, even though that's not kind of what she should do. You know what I mean? Like she feels the guilt and the weight of what she did by freeing Jamie and then, like when she advised Rob against doing what she did, like she just felt like she didn't help Rob by advising him against the Karstarks. You know, like she just feels like her relationship with her son is strained and like what's the point in talking anymore? Like it's going to. I think she thinks it's not going to end well and she doesn't trust herself and she doesn't trust herself and she doesn't trust her son. So she's just helpless, I think, at this point, which is sad. It's sad to see Kat that way, I think.

Speaker 3:

But for this trying to offer Edmure as a replacement. This move smells of desperation and it's just like, okay, what can we do For us book readers seeing these negotiations? It's tough to watch it. You could feel things spiraling and you could see Rob trying to reason with Edmure and everybody. And it's just like if you're a first-time watcher of the show, you're like, okay, maybe he'll figure it out, maybe House Frey will take the offer. Now Rob says they can have harrenhal. That's what walter fray's like. I want harrenhal as well. So they're like go ahead, take it. Like we don't care. Well, first time watcher, you're like, okay, maybe this will work out.

Speaker 2:

Three episodes later, it feels like like the, like the last hope. I guess you'll be like, yeah, be like, yeah, okay, this could be okay. You know, when you're trying to convince yourself of something and you feel a bit delusional. I think that's what that is.

Speaker 2:

Our last set of characters in the Riverlands are Jamie and Brienne. They're still there, haven't made their way out of it. They kind of made their way out of the trenches that they were in because they're in Harrenhal with Roose Bolton but they're still not in the best place, since they're with Roose Bolton and they kind of have dinner with him and they talk about returning Jaime. Roose says that he'll send Jaime to King's Landing only on the condition that Jaime swear to tell his father that Roose Bolton was not personally responsible for memeing him. Which is kind of funny because you know, this is Roose Bolton again trying to be like I didn't do anything. I am your man you know what I'm saying Trying to show that I deserve his loyalty as much as possible. And Jamie wants Brienne to go with him but Bruce wants her to stay and that's a kind of unsettling, I don't know, because he says, oh, she's a prisoner because she's committed treason. But you wouldn't trust anyone, I guess, with Rose Bolton. Of course we care about Brienne too much and we know that she's going to go with Jamie anyways. But to talk about Brienne, you know she looks very ladylike in the scene. For the first time she's wearing like a nice, nicely fitted dress. It's pink and it's fur lined. It's a very different contrast as to how the scene is depicted in the book, because in the book she's wearing like they kind of mock her for her size because you know she's very tall and she's like they kind of mock her for it by giving her a very like loose, fitting garment. That's barely a dress. You know what I mean. That's how they kind of humiliate her. It's kind of like a public like humiliation, if that makes sense Like she feels embarrassed for how others see her. Do you know what I mean? Like it's understandable. But, um, I love the the costume designer for game of thrones, michelle clapson, because of the detail and thought that she puts into the costume sometimes, like in this scene. Um, she went for a completely different uh take and made that dress like kind of form-fitting and overly ladylike, with the pink and the fur lined, and made it, like you know, show not like too much skin but just a bit around her neck. So it did feel very feminine and that's kind of for Brienne herself to feel humiliated kind of within herself, instead of it being like a mockery for people to laugh at her. She feels like she's like in the wrong, like in the wrong place. You know what I mean. Like, uh.

Speaker 2:

There's a quote from Clapton here that I uh noted down when she says I wanted Brienne to put on a dress and look rather good in it, but be horrified about having to wear it. It's meant I'm going to skip that. For Brienne, it's mortifying. The last thing she wants is to be portrayed as a woman and, in a way, to look good as a woman makes it worse. So we decided to rather go for a dress that looked good, but it was her sense of horror that made it comfortable or uncomfortable. Comfortable or uncomfortable, yeah, yeah, um, so I just like that detail and I wanted to to note it down. Um, and I also think that you know, we see brienne kind of humiliated and and, uh, in horror on one side, but then you also see jamie who kind of looks and feels broken because he's struggling to eat with his one hand.

Speaker 2:

I just I don't know yeah you feel for them a bit in the scene. Something that I hated too was that ruse tells him you are in no place to insist on anything. I would have hoped you'd have learned your lesson about overplaying your position. He says that to jamie. He would have never spoken to the old jamie that way and the old jamie never would react to the way that this jamie reacts, which is quietly. He would have said something, would have drawn out of the sword, he would have like, done something, obviously. But this jamie is broken and he can't do that, and he's quiet and it's heartbreaking because that's, you know, like. That goes back to an amazing question that we got in the last episode in our anniversary special. Someone said do you think that jamie would have gone down this road if he hadn't gotten his hand cut off, or like, do you think he was? His character would have changed, and this is proof that. Um, obviously he needed that to happen in order for him to become the jay, that's what is the show.

Speaker 3:

The person he was yeah and for brianne, her character is so great because she isn't tied to politics or power, it's all personal, sacred loyalty and oaths. And then she'll promise me something she'll die trying to to complete her mission or her journey. And that's what she does. And she's like I promised, you know, to return to King's Landing and I'm eager to watch the next episode because I don't remember how they leave Harrenhal. I just remember them. I just remember the bear and she's trapped in the pit. But I just like I said, it's been years since I watched season three.

Speaker 2:

So that's it for the Riverlands. Let's move on to King's Landing, where Jamie hopes to go. So basically, olenna and Tywin. Of course, these two plotting divas are plotting and scheming.

Speaker 3:

Did you just call Tywin a diva?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he's a diva, he is a diva. Something that I kind of liked is that they're diva-off. Elena and Tywin talk about the rumors that are circulating around their respective children, or, like grandchildren. Elena's referring to Loras and his rumors. That's what they were kind of talking about and Cersei I'm sorry. And Jaime.

Speaker 3:

I'm sorry to interrupt, but the way she refers to Loras. I won't say it, but it's so like cutting and it's so her, yeah, she was she how she explains him, and I love when she puts tywin on the defense of like well, you never, when you were a little boy, you know under the sheets. And so I was like never, I've never done that he's so offended.

Speaker 2:

I'm like don't protest too much. What I liked was that you kind of see the difference between them, like, yeah, you can see these two intelligent people like talk and have that scene together. But something that I noted both kind of know the power of people's opinions and he kind of puts his assumption onto her, like he thinks that she is the same as him, but he kind of gets a wake-up call that it's not really that. I don't know how to explain it. Um, it's been a while since I've seen the episodes. I wish I could go into more detail about that, but, um, I remember that being the strongest takeaway that I had from this episode, which is that they're both people that really understand that. They know that they kind of have to do something about those rumors that are circulating about their heirs and they need to fix it, even though they know that it won't really change much. It's just the public image and I don't know if you caught this detail. I think so it's kind of obvious, but I don't know, I didn't make note of it before, but he was going to pour her a glass and she covers it. Fear of poisoning, because you know, like she knows better, yeah, and she's already planning something.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, so finally, olenna like kind of just accepts what Tywin has been suggesting or hinting to, which is the marriage between Loras and Cersei, and she kind of just like gives up and resent and not resent to that, sorry, relents, uh, to that um, after she, after he threatens to make laura as a member of the king's guard for me that you'll never marry, never have an heir, and, of course, because they don't include the other, uh, the other tyra sons, that's kind of like a make or break situation for for them here. Um, but what I love is that she, she, she breaks his quill after signing, like the like does she sign something, I don't, she, she, I does, and then she kind of like breaks his quid, or or, or he offers it to her to sign and she breaks it.

Speaker 3:

I have to do like a retraction, or maybe I don't know if I'm wrong or not, but Tywin threatens to have Loras put in the Kingsguard unless Olenna accepts the marriage proposal. Now, for the past few episodes I've been saying that it's silly Tywin to suggest his marriage practice as Loras as a part of the Kingsguard in the novel. He's been a Kingsguard since the aftermath of the Battle of Blackwater Bay, so at this stage he's already a Kingsguard, so he can't marry anyone. And in the book Cersei was offered Willis Tyrell instead, a character that was cut from the series.

Speaker 3:

You mentioned that before, said a character that was cut from the series. You said you mentioned that before and and thinking about it, I'll never remember him saying king's god. I just assumed that he was already a king's guard and that's dumb. Why are they? Why are they trying to make an alliance? But I want to do. I want to talk about loris and sansa, because this, this scene, was depressing to me, because I feel so sad for sansa at this. Her heart is filled with joy. She's imagining her life as the Lady of Highgarden, not knowing that there's a ton of bricks that will be shattering her dream anymore.

Speaker 3:

It's like she always has, like a second of happiness and then boom, it reminds me of season finale, of season two. She's freed from Joffrey and Littlefinger's.

Speaker 2:

like she smiles for five seconds and then yeah yeah and this reminds me of that uh, it's kind of it is a sad scene between doris and and uh sansa, because you also do see her kind of like, realize that's actually this guy that I've always had a crush on, isn't that's great of a person. So you know, she's been holding on to doris as being sort of like her prince, charming her hope. That's great of a person. So you know, she's been holding onto doris as being sort of like her prince, charming her hope. That's good. This is going to change my life. I'm going to be so happy with him.

Speaker 3:

And then she talks he has no like he's literally has no. He's chatting with her because he's being forced to. Like he has no enthusiasm to know, who she is and she's like, okay, I guess, but but in her mind she's just thinking whatever, I'm going to be out of here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this is better than everything else.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. If I have to deal with a not-so-great marriage, I'd rather have that than being here tortured by these sadistic fools here.

Speaker 2:

And while they're having their unromantic moment, there's a duo or I guess their future spouses, cersei and sirian kind of like, observe them from afar. Sirian was like which one of us is, which one of the four of us is going to be the unhappiest, like which one of us has it for the worst, and he says, like it's probably sansa. I have a very like tiny detail about the scene that I want to talk about. It's like very tiny, but I was like why? But I was like why is this a thing? Peter Dinklage, when he says Sansa's name, he doesn't say Sansa, he says Sansa Like S-U-N-S-A.

Speaker 2:

It's probably Sansa, and I'm like Sansa is not her name, it's Sansa, like it's probably Sansa. And I was like that's like what. Like that's where I was like okay, yeah, he's not British. Like those rare moments where like kind of like the character breaks, I was like that's no, that's not right. Anyways, I know it's like nitpicking, but I couldn't get over Sansa.

Speaker 2:

But weirdly enough, in this scene, like that aside, there's another weird moment, which is that Cersei kind of gives credit to Tyrion for the Blackwater which you'd never think that you'd get from her. So it feels like one of those things, one of the things you'll do before you die, kind of things you know. Like one of her last words, and he confronts her about trying to have him killed during the Battle of the Blackwater. She's quiet, she doesn't really argue, and Tyrion then realizes that while Cersei could command a Kingsguard, she wouldn't really do that. And then he realizes that it must have been Joffrey that ordered the hits on him. That's kind of like the puzzle piece or like the gears in Tyrion's head, and we see that happen all in our screen at that moment or in this scene.

Speaker 3:

I do want to add that this is the closest we got to a normal conversation between Cersei and Tyrion. There's no hate in their tone, no demeaning comments, just asking for opinions and answers, and they actually get them. They have a civil conversation. You're like, oh okay, there's always before this, every scene with them would kind of start civilly and Tyrion will say a joke or you know, it's always ended in I hate you, I want to kill you. Like it's never, never like this. So it's kind of a uh, not refreshing, but it's kind of. It's kind of weird, because you've grown to seeing these people loathe each other and then now they're like um, you know, good siblings and just you know, just let's just talk, not.

Speaker 3:

But I guess the reason why is they have something in common and they're trying to figure out how we're gonna get out of this. I'm you know, we're not both betrothed to people we don't want to marry. Peter dinklage is so good and he enters the room with sansa and shea. He he's trying so hard not to be gentle with her with the news, like he doesn't say hey, by the way, you can marry me tough, tough crap. You know what I deal with it yeah but here he.

Speaker 3:

We don't see the scene of him telling her, we see the aftermath of her crying and I think it's this storyline of sansa in the Climb. It kind of emphasizes her, I don't know transformation from, I guess, naive to a young woman who's now experienced so much betrayal. And this is she's going to experience something else in a few episodes. That just deepens her pain and her hurt and her heartbrokenness, which eventually she begins to shape as I guess I don't know how to say resilience in her.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

For all the people who hate Sansa, I'm like I just feel for her, Especially in this episode. I'm like, okay, just go, just go, Just go to Highgarden.

Speaker 2:

Isn't it awkward, though, that she's in the room. Isn't that what Tyrion said? Isn't that like the exact word that he was like? This is going to be awkward when. Shay's there, and because Shay's there, because Sansa thinks that or Sansa thinks that. You know, shay is like this very loyal person to her, which.

Speaker 3:

I think she is, I think she is now, she is, she is and she's in the corner, which I think she is.

Speaker 2:

I think she is now.

Speaker 3:

She is, she is. I think she's getting there. But, it's funny that, like he says he wants to have a word in private.

Speaker 3:

And she's like no, no, you're good, she's my bestie, you can tell her, you can say whatever you want, and that's what she says. I can't remember. She does stay, she does stay, she does not go. That's why Tyrion is like this is going to be awkward. I think we get to the point of the episode where it's the final scene and that's with Littlefinger and Varys, and it's in a show edition. We do not get this in the book. I'll just say it's my favorite scene from the episode, hands down. I know we have that moment where we say what's your favorite scene? I think this is. It Gives me chills from the very first line.

Speaker 3:

There's a bit of a setup with Varys beforehand, but it's this moment that Littlefinger reveals how he views the game he's playing. What struck me the most was how he talks about those who refuse to climb and then when he's talking, he's saying this monologue and it turns into like a voiceover. We finally see Littlefinger's claws come out in this speech and it's it turns into like a voiceover. We finally see little fingers like claws come out in this speech, because he's always been reserved and you know he's scheming and he's he's trying to figure out a way to get more power, but in this speech he he basically is.

Speaker 3:

He's. He's showing how cold-hearted and ambitious he is. He proves this by tricking Sansa, crushing her hopes, by marrying Loras and then using her, as you know, a political game. You know, we also see that he sent Ross to Joffrey. So it shows that he has little care for human life. He doesn't care about loyalty or justice. He only cares about who's climbing higher and gaining more power, unlike Varys, who he's for the realm quote unquote. And whoever wrote that, I guess, is our favorite people.

Speaker 3:

There's their lines.

Speaker 2:

Do we have to?

Speaker 3:

say that we have to give them some credit here.

Speaker 2:

We'll give them credit, sure, but we want to say our favorite people. That's a bit drastic for a show that features Emilia Clarark and and has the with the books written by george r martin, but I will say that this is an amazing speech because it's kind. It's true, you know like there are little fingers in this world that kind of see chaos and uh, like this organization. You know they see like um, I don't know like, uh, like political, economic events that disrupt everyday lives. They see those events as opportunities to rise in rank and make themselves useful. So it's great insight. It rings through Not necessarily the most positive thing, but that doesn't matter. It's insight into who Littlefinger is and I really like that. And, as you said, that shows that the difference between verus and um and littlefinger and littlefinger is that person that would like climb like he would. I think he kind of sees each person.

Speaker 2:

I wouldn't see it really as a ladder, but you know those rock climbing walls he sees each person as like one of those, um, those things that he latches on to, whereas with varus, I think it like slithers his way to the top, like he tries to go undetected. You know, he doesn't. If there's something, if there's something chaotic going on like a revolution or a better or whatever, he's just suddenly there and doing things and taking care of things that you're like, oh, this, this guy works and like, yeah, sure, but the little finger is like I did this, I did that and this, and then that's, and I have q and I did, and I did this and I will do this, and I have this in the works and it's like, oh, okay, like thanks, then you know, like you make your, you made yourself useful and that way he, he kind of uh, I don't know it's a difference like way of looking at power.

Speaker 2:

There's power and being known obviously like there's a finger and power, and being unknown like ferris, so I don't know. I really love that. It's a great. It's a great, uh, it's a great scene.

Speaker 3:

I like that. You said climb, I think. Well, the episode's name yeah, little finger would not have any issue. Or thought on climbing on the backs of many to get to the top, oh yeah. And then you have the opposite of rob and john, who probably would be in the bottom making sure people get to the top before they even start climbing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and while everyone's talking about like the opportunity of the climb, the episode ends with like I guess a sweet, uh climb and like a nice kind of reward of a successful climb. That's not, I guess. I was going to say it doesn't have any intentions, but it does. I was going to say it's just a sweet moment, I guess, intentions aside, of John and Ygritte on top of the wall having like a nice romantic moment. The sweet like the calm before the storm, because I don't know why I said it's without any intentions, because they obviously climbed that thing for a reason.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, um, the calm before the many storms ahead yeah, it wasn't like like, I didn't see it as like something so political they're just because in this episode they don't talk about. They were just like climbing doing their thing. So to me it wasn't like oh yeah, they're gonna heading to war, it's like they're climbing.

Speaker 3:

Why don't we go from that and just go straight to our scene of the episode? Okay, I already mentioned it's Littlefinger's monologue. Can I safely assume that's your scene of the episode?

Speaker 1:

Yes, okay.

Speaker 3:

I mean Olenna and Tywin is fantastic, but this one is just. You know I get goosebumps and with just the way that it was edited, it was a perfect ending to the episode.

Speaker 2:

I agree you know you mentioned this too, which is that people had complaints with this episode of calling it weak because not like much happened.

Speaker 2:

But I think that's having kind of that thematic thread going throughout it all really helped, which is, you know, like the climb and like like I at all um really helped, which is, you know, like the climb and like um, uh, like I can't why, I can't know why I'll like I can't find the words for it in english but like um, um, like social climbing, you know what I mean like like rising to power. It is an underlying theme in this episode because it's kind of behind every um storyline. It's why and taiwan are doing what they're doing, because they want to, like um, maintain their place at the top. It's why Rob knew that he fell down the ladder, so now he knows to climb back up because of the chaos that he created. It's there in every scene. Jamie has fallen off because of him losing his hand. It's just that underlying theme, that thematic sorry, connecting the episode together made it a strong episode of my eyes. So, um, yeah, I forgot what your question was, but that was my thoughts on the episode.

Speaker 3:

Uh, the question was scene of the episode. But how about your rating for season three, episode seven, decline?

Speaker 2:

oh yeah. So then, like I did answer your question and give my reasoning, which is that which is why I validated fingers scene, anyways, I think I'd rate it. Maybe I can. 8 points 8.5 feels generous, 8 feels too low. I'll give it an 8.5. That's fine.

Speaker 3:

I'm doing 8.5 because of the reason I gave you earlier of watching this episode, and maybe it's because I hadn't seen it in so long and reading those comments beforehand and going wait a minute. There's some crucial and important scenes and amazing scenes, amazing monologues and dialogues, so I'm like what are people talking about anyway? So 8.5 out of 10. We'd like to thank you all for listening to dancing with dragons. If you're enjoying the ride through westeros with us, be sure to follow us on instagram at dancing with underscore dragons for updates, reelsels and more. And if you've got a minute, leave us a rating and review on any of the podcast platforms you use. It really helps other fans find the show. Next episode we'll be diving into Season 3, episode 7, the Bear and the Maiden Fair. You won't want to miss that one, but in the meantime, peace out.

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