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Dancing with Dragons
Game of Thrones: S3 | EP5 "Kissed by Fire"
For the 65th episode of Dancing with Dragon, Minwa & Tony dissect if oaths conflict, what choice do you make? From Robb's fateful decision with Karstark to Jaime's confession about killing the Mad King, "Kissed by Fire" forces characters to confront impossible moral dilemmas. Which would you choose?
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The blood of the First Men flows through my veins as much as yours, boy. I fought the Mad King for your father. I fought Joffrey for you. We are King Stark and Karstark. That didn't stop you from betraying me and it won't save you now. I don't want it to save me. I want it to hold you to the end of your days. Kneel my lord Rickard Karstark, lord of Karhold. Here, in sight of gods and men, I sentence you to die. Would you speak a final word? Kill me and be cursed. You are no king of mine.
Speaker 2:Welcome back Fire and Blood, faithful to Dancing with Dragons, the podcast where we march through Westeros one episode at a time. My name is Tony, here with my co-host, minwa, and today we're diving deep into Season 3, episode 5, kissed by Fire. This one's got it all secret caves and first loves, kings and killers, honor and execution and a bad scene that redefines a villain. Why don't we start our review of the fifth episode of game of thrones, season three, kissed by fire? It premiered april 28, 2013. Written by brian cogman and directed by Alex Graves.
Speaker 2:Graves goes on to direct four episodes in season four, which include the purple wedding it's not called the purple wedding, but we all know about that Oberyn and the mountain, the trial by combat episode and the season finale, and he does one more in between. For this episode, I felt like it moves through a lot of locations and the characters. You know how we always have issues with that. We're like, well, there's too many characters, there's too many locations, but for this episode, I felt like it flowed very naturally into the next. You felt more interconnected rather than being scattered. Okay, kiss by fire is a phrase used by the wildlings to describe people who are red-haired.
Speaker 3:I just want to jump in and say something about that. Obviously, it's talking about secret. That's what the wildlings describe redheads as they consider it. Good luck, or you're blessed. If you're a redhead, you're considered kissed by fire. But there's a secret meaning or something that you could overthink if you're a hardcore fan and just like to make something out of nothing, like me and some other fans online. So people who are saying that the double meaning here is that you know. Obviously, in this episode we see egret and john kissed for the first time and since john is targaryen, he's a blood of the dragon, he's tar, he's fire. And Hegris was kissed by fire in two ways because of her red head and because she was kissed by Jon Snow, kissed by fire.
Speaker 2:My brain went to the Hound and he's traumatized by fire. And then you have Barry Thundarian with the flaming sword. That just adds to the craziness of this child by combat. So that's what my brain was going to when it said kids by fire.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that makes more sense and that's better than what I had. I just thought that that was a funny double meaning that you could think of when it comes to Egris.
Speaker 2:Where should we start?
Speaker 3:Let's start there with what you just talked about. Let's start with the Hound and the Brothers Without Banners and Arya, because it's the first scene of the show as well.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed this scene. The fight choreography is well done. The beautiful lighting that really enhanced the brightness of the flames done the beautiful lighting that really enhanced the brightness of the flames. I just love how you cut to aria and she yells kill him with such conviction and like I've never seen aria that like to see like she was like pissed, I think it all boils down to like one. You killed my friend two year. You were a lab dog, literally for the Lannisters who hate my family Like all that was boiling and it comes out in her Like she wants. She runs and tries to kill the Hound herself. Actually there's like three scenes in this cave and all well done. I just really enjoyed this part of the episode.
Speaker 3:So did I. I think that it's actually kind of Arya kind of broke my heart a little bit in this episode because, as you said, like we can see her passion or, I guess, her anger towards the Hound, but just to like jump to the end of the scene there when she, when they talk about, you know, beric being resurrected and Thoros and she's you know, she's seeing this in front of her eyes. What she just tells them is so heartbreaking. She said could you bring back a man without a head? Not six times, just once.
Speaker 3:It's a rare moment, I think, where we see our aria being emotional because we haven't really seen her, um, have a moment like that for a while. You reach see her wanting revenge and you know, uh, formulating her list and just surviving. But I think this is the first time that she's like really sitting with her grief because like she has to face it almost she has to see that other people can be, are living this life and are getting resurrected and yeah she hasn't, uh, had any time to actually process, or, yeah, she's processed.
Speaker 2:He's been on the run since ned was executed. But let me ask you this is it cheating to fight in a trial by combat if you lose and have the lord of light mulligan of being resurrected?
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess kind of in their world and their religion they're like oh, whoever wins is like what their god or gods uh, choose right, and then if that same power bring back the the loser, then I guess that's what's, what's decreed too. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:like yeah I mean, I do give uh, beric and thoris credit for sticking to the word. Um, sticking to your word and oaths is very, very important in this episode. And also we have Gendry who wants to stay with the Brotherhood and he kind of gives Arya the speech of you know, I want to be part of something. I've never been part of anything. I've always had to work, I've always had a master, I've always been people sold me. I want to be part of something important.
Speaker 2:And she kind of says well, you could be with me, you know, rob could help you and and you'd be, you'd be my family. And I love the line that he says you wouldn't be my family, you'd be my lady, because he would go back to being, I guess, not a peasant, but he doesn't want to be inferior to and he wants to be part of something that everybody's kind of equal. And that's what the brotherhood is. They're not. Yeah, they have a leader, but it's not like a class system. As you know, if you go to river run and he goes, that obviously he's gonna have to call her my lady, not my lady.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I, I get, I understand where he's coming from and that kind of shocks aria a bit and she kind of it takes her back a little bit like huh yeah, I think that she never really considered that honestly before Gendry said that Because in her mind, even though she's going to be a lady and everything she's like, we're all equal, we're all the same, we can have the same relationship, even though I'm the lady of Winterfell, and I think that's the reason she thinks that, because of how she lived in Winterfell, know, we saw her for like an episode, I guess, or two, um, before uh, game of thrones really kicked off and they were in winterfell. She was just, you know, running around the yards was a very homey environment, they were all one. It didn't feel like they were, you know, like these untouchable lords and ladies. Um, yeah, like she, she was very connected with, with, um, the northern people. So, like I don't know, she to her there was no barrier, whereas with gendry being in king's landing, there was an extreme barrier between him and, like the common folk of people of the area and the northern ladies that lived there. So I think that's just an interesting contrast, um, and something that's already never considered before, because of where she came from and speaking of people that come from different backgrounds but are connected and talk about oaths and keeping their words.
Speaker 3:Let's move on to john's no and egret, who we talked about in the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 3:Um, obviously I mentioned this already, but you know we see john break his oath in this episode.
Speaker 3:Um, we see him struggle with it quite a bit. I guess you know we see John break his oath in this episode. Um, we see him struggle with it quite a bit. I guess you know, like, internally, and even more so in the books, we see him like, I guess I don't say panic over it, but we see him kind of kind of anxious and ashamed that he was, you know, about to break his vows and then he kind of reminded himself like all the other brothers did the same thing as well. They, you know, it's known that the brother of the night's watch got him one time, but for him of course, it's different. He feels, you know, panicked in the book, I guess more you know, because we see it in his point of view that he's like a stark son and he's doing this and I, if I remember correctly, I think there was a moment where he was like what would ned think? But then he remembers that ned, you know, like fathered him yeah yeah, I don't feel like it's.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're a hostage, right, basically you could be killed at any moment to really breaking your oath as a brother of the night's watch. If you never, if you think you're gonna die soon yeah, I mean, I don't know I wouldn't even be thinking about the.
Speaker 2:Night's Watch at the moment. That's just me. Yeah, it feels like if you are, in any moment's notice, be killed in his mind, not going to see the Night's Watch again, or the wall. Is it really breaking your oath or does he have to go through with this so he can survive? That's how he justifies breaking his oath. Well, I have to do this If I could get her by my side. Or does he really fall in love with her? Because, like he's, he goes uh, I was a maid, which is a weird little. There's. No, uh, they don't use the term virgin. Obviously in westeros they just say he took my. What is it? Maidenhood or that's? That's the word. Yeah, I think it was a funny moment when she's talking about her conquest and he goes yeah, I don't want to hear it. That's fine, which every guy's like yeah, I don't want to hear about any any, let's just talk about the future now. We don't want to hear about anything you've done. No, but I also love the scene prior to the cave.
Speaker 2:Is that they're trying to still interrogate him for information about how the patrols in all the castles, how many of the castles have watchers or people watching Throughout the wall? It was 700 miles or 700 miles, there's 19 castles and there's only three of them that are armed or being protected. He does tell a little white lie because he says there's 1,000 men in Castle Black and we know there's not 1,000 men. I think when they left for the Great Ranging with Mormont, when he took like 300 guys up beyond the wall, pretty much 90% of those people died right up beyond, beyond the wall. Pretty much 90 of those people died right. So realistically, there's only 300 men guarding castle black and I think he said it in such a way that that they believe them. He's like I'm gonna kill you because he tells um, the guy who's a warg for his name or no, that's the guy's name, right or no? Inell, I always forget.
Speaker 2:I'm going to check, but anyway, I mean he's.
Speaker 3:Orrell, orrell, or.
Speaker 2:Ornell Ornell. Ornell is probably like a brand name of an appliance. So you get him breaking his oath of lying, I guess, to he's protecting his brothers. Of course we're going to forgive him for lying because he's thinking about other people.
Speaker 3:Like when you said oh oh, he wouldn't care about his vows. I think that's what he's not caring about. He doesn't care about lying or not, and he he doesn't really see that as serious as breaking his vows with the eagerness you know what I mean. He's like this is a lie, I'm going to get killed anyways.
Speaker 3:I might well just just lie and say this thing, and I don't know if it's true or not to him it's, it's a bigger deal that he broke his vows with the egress because, especially because of the trauma in his head of what, um, what could come of it, you know what I mean. Like I don't think of course we don't see it in the show because we're not in john's head the way we are in the book. But in the book I think he said something like he was nervous about like fathering a son that's not, that's illegitimate, and that baby then living the trauma of being illegitimate the way that he was, you know. So he was thinking deep, he was panicking, he was like looking years into the future of his like hypothetical baby's trauma. So it's like a turning point for John, you know, you know what. But we said so many things about John at the end of the episode I think he was happy. This is one of the happiest memories that he has ever had in his life, something that he can look back on for the rest of his life. So I'm at least happy for him.
Speaker 3:But he's not the only one of his siblings, I guess, to quote, unquote, siblings. That's panicking, going through a turning point in this episode and this episode and making a questionable ethical decision, or like a dilemma, um, because rob is going through it in this episode or, like he, a huge turning point for him to say that he's um. We included the audio clip of him at the beginning of this episode and it's the moment where he decides to execute um, ricard carstark. Uh, just to recap, in case you missed it, ricard car stark killed the teenage lannister boys, um, who were like prisoners or hostages at the stark camp, and he killed them as revenge for his sons who were killed by jamie. It was like out of anger almost. It wasn't really like those kids did anything and he was getting revenge on them specifically. It was just that he wanted lannister blood immediately and and Team Stark wasn't acting. They haven't been acting in a while.
Speaker 2:And this has been building up since last season. Kar Stark has been foaming in the mouth for so-called justice and he kills poor Tommen Baratheon. I'm sorry, poor Tommen dies twice in the series.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, the actor that plays Tommen. He has two death scenes. He plays one of those Lannister boys. So yeah, as punishment for that, rob's trying to be so ethical, so noble. So he orders Karstark to basically be sent to the dungeons and he kills all of Karstark's men. I believe Karstark has a very kind of epic line to Rob and he says if Rob kills him he'd be a kinslayer, because the Starks and Karstarks are kin, they're related. And he says kill me and be cursed. You are no king of mine. And Rob just then executes him, which is it's so heartbreaking, it's epic, but it's so heartbreaking because we don't want this for Rob and it's we understand where he's coming from, being so noble, understanding how his mind works, how Ned's mind works.
Speaker 3:But, like everyone around, Rob. We know it's an unwise decision.
Speaker 2:We know it's something that somebody like the black fish should have just set him down and be like, look, maybe he could have gotten through to Rob, so why don't you? Because Edmure is telling him, hey, don't do this. And he doesn't really respect Edmure, but the Blackfish doesn't say anything and I think him sitting him down and say, look, I know what he did was wrong, but if your goal or objective is to win this war, you cannot alienate these people because they're in the show it says that it's half of his forces, but in the book it's not, as it's not as much, but still it's not a good look to have one of your key bannermen leave the fight and I think it's just a dumb decision and it's inexperience of not. I have to stick to this, this loyalty, this honor, and not thinking about every single domino that's going to fall after you knock one down. He's not thinking about that. He's the ramifications of this death is basically his downfall. It's arguably the, the turning point we we can say we always talk about.
Speaker 2:When did Rob lose the war? Was it the day that the North claimed him as the king, which I think was silly, what? That's not. Yeah, that's not his aspirations. He wanted revenge or justice for his father. He should have said look, I'm not a a king, we're just going up there, kick some ass, get my sisters back. But no, he, he took the moniker of king, whatever was it.
Speaker 2:Did he lose the war when he married talisa? And he, he broke a major oath to the phrase of saying, hey, I'm going to marry one of your daughters. Was that that key moment? Probably Probably, because then Walder Frey and his sick minds, I'm just going to figure out a way to betray you. Or was it this? I mean, it's all. This was just the cherry on top of the cake For him. He made so many bad decisions in this episode Killing Karstarr and then going. I'm going to take Casterly Rock, that Casterly Rock. What the heck With Tyrion in season seven, robin, season three, like who cares about that? And then he goes. I can't go through there without the phrase. And then, boom, the wheels of the red wedding are set in motion in this episode and it goes when I hear the phrase and I hear him and I go oh my, here he comes, he's coming in three episodes.
Speaker 3:I'm going to have to review that don't remind me, but yeah, this is like I have to be reminded because this is just like the beginning of the end for Rob, like literally you said it yourself like I think him like there were two major mistakes that he did that barely could have recovered from, like it was a very unlikely chance he could have recovered from, like it was a very, very unlikely chance to get a recover from them, the first one being his marriage and the second one being um, um this I think his marriage is a bit more salvageable because, um, like he still had the car starts with him and especially in the books, he didn't marry some random person from volantis or whatever. He married like someone that was kind of noble, right, like she was a he's talking about in the novel yeah oh, jane west, yeah you mentioned the
Speaker 3:blackfish and it's so weird. Why didn't the blackfish say anything, not to say about? I never. I never thought about that before. Like why didn't he stop it? I know that we see caitlin and telitha trying to stop him, but he probably would have listened to the Blackfish. Why didn't we get that? That's so weird.
Speaker 2:Or maybe the Blackfish is one of those stubborn guys with with oaths or like respecting us. This is my King, I'm not going to. His decision is final. I think Rob would have listened to him. So why don't we leave one self-made King to another in Stannis and Stannis is again the actor I forgot his name, but he's really good, has that brooding face so down so well. And we get to meet his wife, queen Selyse. That does show up in season two. I think she's in the background. You can see her in the scenes but she has no dialogue. So this is her official coming out party of. That's my wife. What I found weird was she's very devout to the lord of light, like super, super devout. What was very distracting in this scene was having the unborn kids in those jars.
Speaker 3:Oh God, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:It was very creepy, very disturbing, and that does not happen at all. That's just a show edition, which I thought was kind of weird.
Speaker 3:And to add to the weirdness, did you see that it was based on someone in real life?
Speaker 2:Yes, I read that. Yes, that's what the hell.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, that's that's. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's just, I'm not. It's scary.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, like that's just a freak me out and you know somebody is in a cult or brainwash when your husband says, oh, I broke my vow or my oath another scene about oaths and vows with stannisis because he had relations with Melisandre. And she's like oh no, I know. I love it what she was so for it and he's like he was kind of shocked that she was so into it. That's kind of weird.
Speaker 3:It made him more because he was kind of disgusted with himself. When he goes to to his wife for the first time to salise, and then when she doesn't mind, it kind of makes him like feel even weirder about it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like, uh, okay uh, we get to meet his daughter, princess Shireen. It's one of those things where you see her, you're kind of shocked because she has this half her face is covered in this disfigurement and they never explain it. We don't know what's going on and I think in season five, once we figure out and we learn about grayscale in season five, we go oh, that's what, princess Shireen?
Speaker 3:is.
Speaker 2:And she had it during her infancy but somehow, uh, she survived it and the most important thing about her surviving it and having it still her face is that it's not contagious. Usually if you have greyscale you can't be touched. It's super contagious, uh, but for her it's not so, and it couldn't happen to a more lovely, adorable human being. Because shireen is one of those characters that I want to be friends with and I think her relationship with davos is one of my favorites in the whole show.
Speaker 3:It's because such a sweet she's such a sweet girl and her like I guess relationship with Davos is one of my favorites in the whole show. It's because such a sweet, she's such a sweet girl and her like I guess relationship with Davos is just as sweet as she is. Cause, you know, we, we, we feel bad for Davos often, that he is this very like kind of loyal guy who was just trying to like get by and he is yet not appreciated by the person that he has faith in. You know, like status never really shows him that appreciation and we almost want better for davos every time we see him, you know, because we're like we need, you need better than stannis.
Speaker 3:I've said that before in the podcast too. Um, so you kind of meet shireen and you kind of understand davos is a bit like part of why he's there, is, I, I guess, for her too, because where else would anyone treat Davos with any softness, any care? And I think that when he sees her he probably remembers his son who he lost, and it's the only friendship that either of them have.
Speaker 2:I feel like Shireen. Davos is the father figure that Shireen doesn't have in Stannis. Stannis is so closed off and I feel bad. She's essentially an orphan. She has nobody there to be with her, to talk to her, and then having Davos as a friend is essentially a father figure. I love that she goes down to visit him in the dungeon and it's one of my. It's only like a minute, but just this back and forth is very, very touching.
Speaker 4:If your father knew You're a traitor, are you?
Speaker 5:I am child. I disobeyed my king, your father, and now I'm paying the price.
Speaker 4:I don't care, you're my friend, you must get bored down here. I brought you something to read. It's about Aegon and his dragons. Aegon used to live here, did you know that? And the Targaryens built this castle.
Speaker 5:So they did.
Speaker 4:You can hide the book under your cloak. It's a good one. I'll bring you more.
Speaker 5:Thank you, my lady. I'm sure it's a fine book, but it's wasted on me.
Speaker 4:Take it I. It's a fine book but it's wasted on me. Nick, I have more. My lady, I can't read the words. You can't, I'll teach you. I'll come when Bert's on duty and teach you. It's easy, it'll be fun. No, we can't. Why not? What will they do? Lock us in cells? I wouldn't know where to start. At the beginning this word is egg on, and you see a, e and g together like that. It sounds like egg, and the title of the whole book is an history of egg on the conqueror and I love that shireen is such a fan of the Targaryens because she loves all the books.
Speaker 2:Season five, she tells her dad Stannis about the Dance of the Dragons and she read the book. She just loves everything dragons and Targaryens.
Speaker 3:Before we move on, I just want to clarify the fact that I mentioned about Cind lease keeping the remains of her of her sons preserved in jars, and how that's based on someone in real life. Um, it's not the exact same thing. I thought. I thought that's what I read, but, um, uh, the director, or like, sorry, the producer, brian cogman, said that. Um, it was inspired by an acquaintance who had the hands of her stillborn son bronzed and keeps them on the shelf. So it's not this exact same.
Speaker 2:It's not like a jar.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not a jar, not a jar. So I just wanted to clarify that fact. It's more real, more sad, but I just want to clarify that. It's not the disturbing thing that Sidious is doing, I guess. So Shireen mentioned Targaryen, so let's move on to the Targaryen, the best Targaryen, my Targaryen, my queen Daenerys. You know, in the last episode she had one of the best scenes for her character of all time, if not the best, when she frees the unsudied. And now we see her kind of dealing with what happens right after.
Speaker 2:She's crushing that Valyrian.
Speaker 3:She's using her Valyrian, as you said, not just showing off to us I guess the viewers, and being like this is what I've been keeping it all along but also to Missandei, because Missandei, you know, I think she wants to show off to someone else that speaks her language. With Missandei, with her advisors, jorah and Barristan, and she meets Grey Worm. She addresses them in low Valyrian and I think this is I think it was in this episode or the next where it's the first time they make I think it's the next one the distinction between low Valyrian and high Valyrian. But when she speaks to Grey Worm it is in low Valyrian, which I guess is just what's remained of the region and what they communicate with us. So when she talks to them, she says that you know that they're no longer slaves, they're free.
Speaker 3:But Grey Worm refuses to like kind of change his name. He keeps the name that he was given as slave, grey Worm, which is supposed to be like a degrading name. That's what um Krasnus said earlier, which is that they're all given um, like bad names, like like Red Rat or something like that you know what I mean Just to make them feel not human. So Danny is still confused as to why he's saying this, but then he says that it's all out of respect for her because he sees it as good luck. He was freed while he carried this name. He didn't want this original name because he was enslaved while he had that name. So I think that Danny kind of doesn't really get it, but she, you know, she hears this and she kind of feels, I guess maybe at least that she's happy that someone sees it as his luck turning around.
Speaker 2:I do like the interaction between Jorah and Selmy and I like how Selmy says a man of honor keeps his vows even if he's serving a drunk or a lunatic. I'm just going to save that line until we talk about Jamie and Brienne, because it's very important and I want to come back to that he does say.
Speaker 2:For one time in my life I had to serve somebody. Who's what did he say? Just or pure? I forgot the line he said Do you think she's the one? And Jorah says says you know you believe in her.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with all my heart and just to clarify uh, you asked about what barrison said, how he described dan. He says that just once before he dies, he wants to know what it's like to serve with pride, fighting for someone he believes in okay that's how he mentions time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, I want us to move on, because there's two very big scenes one that's character changing, I think for jamie, and that's the one in the bathtub, and we've talked about this many times and we're here. We finally get to dissect it.
Speaker 5:So here's what jamie is telling rianne Tell me, if your precious friend commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women and children burned alive, would you have done it?
Speaker 1:Would you have kept your oath then?
Speaker 5:First I killed the pyromancer and then, when the king turned to flee, I drove my sword into his back. Burn them all. He kept saying, burn them all. I don't think he expected to die. He meant to band with the rest of us and rise again, reborn as a dragon, turn his enemies to ash. They still used it out to make sure that didn't happen. I still is proud to make sure that didn't happen.
Speaker 4:That's where Ned Stark found me. If this is true, why didn't you tell anyone?
Speaker 5:Why didn't you tell Lord Stark Stark, you think the honorable Ned Stark wanted to hear my side? He judged me guilty the moment he set eyes on me. By what right?
Speaker 4:does the both judge the lion? By what right the king's there?
Speaker 2:jamie, my name's jamie you know, it's funny that he says a heartwarming thing and he's all that stuff and then she goes, the king slayer yeah, literally that's my thing, but like that's so wrong.
Speaker 2:Um, no, I mean, that's so powerful. That moment and I there's one little moment in the beginning, before we get into this, this speech is that when he gets into the bathtub naked or whatever, brienne is, like you know, covering her body, shielding her body, right yeah, and very nervous to be around him. And then there's a moment where he takes a jab. Renly says something oh, this is why Renly and she gets up and forgets about it. She's not shy anymore because she's so pissed that he dishonored his name. To me, that was a great contrast of her being, like shielding her, but like she's so timid. That's it Getting up to the strong.
Speaker 2:I got a sense of like I'm going to forget about being that person because he just said something about somebody I loved and cared about and you're not going to disrespect them that way.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he actually says I'm sorry, like the true apology.
Speaker 3:She appreciates this, I think. That's really, I think, at that point, like she believes him when she she I don't want to say she trusts him fully. But it's why I think Jamie was able to open up, because there's kind of that understanding that there's like a truth between them, that it's like peaceful for a while. You know what I mean. Like, yeah, you know. We also have to remember that he kind of helped save her life's, had to come to say, from being assaulted in previous episodes. She knows that, like he already, that he has this good side, she's accepting of him and he recognizes that and that's why he was able to open up because, like he knows that she is being that side of him, whereas if he, like other people, just choose not to, even though they know that he might have a good side, they prioritize the kink sayer thing. You know, like they only see him in one specific, narrow way.
Speaker 2:And I think, asking the question and turning it around for her to actually think about what would you have done if Renly commanded you to kill your father and kill innocent people? Would you have done it? Because he's your king and that's an order and you have to do whatever the king you know, and just think about it. Well, I talked about Berenson some and he said you know, you have to keep your vows, even if you're serving a drunk or a lunatic. Yet Berenson didn't get any crap for being loyal to the Targaryens. He was offered a promotion or a job to keep his old job, you know. Yeah, jaime was branded like a traitor as soon as Ned Stark, or because his supposed moral compass is not the same. So everybody's just passing this judgment on him because he broke his oath, even though in the truth he saved thousands of people. So I think jamie, at this point he has suffered for his crimes and we saw one that's funny I thought about. You saw one resurrection and then you kind of see another one, but this less literal obviously.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah he's not the Kingslayer, he's not the man without honor. No more in Brienne's eyes he's Jaime to everybody else he's still the Kingslayer, but to her, I think, just saying that to her because he knows that she's so honorable, I think that makes him feel okay, and maybe because he's probably thinking to himself I'm going to die soon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true and like I like that you said that too. That's just like a rebirth almost for Jamie, because for me this was like I do agree, and I think that this is the first time in the show we really really start to see how complex Jamie is. You know, like you said, he served for his crimes and now we're kind of peeled to our firm and we see who he really is. That's the thing. We're being introduced to the gray area. I think you know what I mean. We're seeing that Jamie has this side, that he saved the city and he makes us question him and everything that we know about him alongside Brienne. That's what I'm trying to say is that it was more powerful to see this as current Jamie saying the story rather than, um, it's being a flashback, because I saw this a criticism of this episode.
Speaker 3:Someone said I I would have preferred it as a flashback, but I think it's more powerful seeing this as current Jamie saying the story, because we're seeing the person we know now like the villain and just like all of that, like kind of being melted away along with the dirt on his body. You know what I'm saying? Like we see it in front of our eyes. We see the hurt of that Kings's Lair legacy. In Nicolai Coster-Waldau's eyes, the actor's eyes, we see how that burden kind of weighed on him ever since that happened. It's the first time that he's opening up about it. I don't know if it's canonical, but it feels like it. You know, like that someone is actually listening to him and hearing him and he's so vulnerable. He's not wearing any clothes, he's like you know, know, he lost a limb, he's. We just see all of that king's player identity being melted away in him like kind of just being, as you said, reborn.
Speaker 2:So I think that that was so powerful, that was excellent all right, let's head down to king's landing, and there's actually a lot of quick scenes here, but two major ones that I really want to focus on. So let's, uh, do the quick scenes. There's one with lot of quick scenes here, but two major ones that I really want to focus on. So let's do the quick scenes. There's one with Cersei and Baelish. Cersei is you know, we've talked about her being fed up with the Tyrells. She just can't stand these people. She knows they're plotting something, so she enlists the help of Baelish. She goes, yes, and she goes. Well, I hope you do a better job than finding Aria. She kind of jabs him a little bit and I think what happens is that Littlefinger sends one of his I say male workers to kind of seduce Loras Tyrell. What I found is that when Loras ends up in bed with think the guy's name is Oliver, is that a lot of people were upset, like online. Is that you know, loris was loved, friendly, so much like he, that was his, the love of his life, and for him to just get in bed with somebody like that so easily, it's just it dilutes his storyline with with renly. But then I read that the director had planned this major scene of Loras regretting sleeping with Oliver. He did it, but right after it's just like I can't believe I did this with cutting that out. It kind of leaves a sour taste of of Loras doing that, so anyway. So the whole point of Oliver seducing him was to get some information from the Tyrells and Loras in bed naked he goes. Oh yeah, by the way, you know they want me to marry Sansa.
Speaker 2:Then we get to one of my favorite scenes in this in the season is having two heavyweights of intellect and sass and wit with Olenna and Tyrion. Tyrion and Olenna are talking about the wedding and they're talking about the expenses. It's poor padra, she, she just scolds all these people who work around. I want to say like servants, but she's like where'd you go? She asked for something. He comes back, I think one minute later and she's where'd you go, volantis, to get this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh my God, I literally wrote that down as being a really funny line. I wanted to say it too. It's so funny, it's so real, it's so like sassy old lady.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean she was gone for like maybe two minutes tops. I mean that's fast service. In my opinion, there's an important line that Olena says is that she so eloquently describes how the rich and powerful provide distraction in order for the hungry not to turn on them. And we need these distractions because, if not, these people will have nothing to do, and if they have, nothing to do.
Speaker 4:All they're going to think about is getting rid of us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why you know you have the tournaments and you have this. Is you want people to be distracted from? Oh, by the way, yeah, I haven't eaten in a week, but yeah, there's a tournament tomorrow. I guess I need to watch that.
Speaker 3:She is and I think that, like it showed that she was. Uh, you know, we see it in the previous episode too, and I think that the previous one or the one before it's when marjorie like leads joffrey to the people and lets them cheer for him you know, we talked about that scene um, and when cersei kind of feels like she starts to lose control over joffrey and, you know, tywin, it just has to like what's good, someone got to him. So, anyways, I think that's when we hear Elena say this, we are like, yeah, that's where Marjorie got us from, that's where she learned her lesson from. She's been listening to her grandmother, um, because something that Marjorie understood and like that, the point of being loved by like going and distracting them and talking to them and stuff like that. So, yeah, olena's lessons.
Speaker 3:Um, I wish we got more scenes with tyrian and olena. Yeah, like it's such a waste that I don't know, maybe there's something I'm forgetting about, but I feel like I just wish we saw more and more and more, because you have these two really sassy, clever characters. Who wants as many scenes with them as possible?
Speaker 2:yeah, tyrian tries to say you know we're spending a lot of money, and Alanna's like, yeah, but by the way, I'm providing this, I'm providing this with the house time. I was providing this many sheep, this many livestock, this much amount of food, million, whatever, million, this million that you know, all these soldiers, all these, and he goes oh yeah, I forgot, we're providing. I mean they. And he goes oh yeah, I forgot, we're providing. I mean they're sustaining the city with their contributions to King's Landing, and she goes you know what? Whatever, let me just pay for half of it. Let's move on to the last scene of the episode. I know I sound like a broken record because I always say, oh, this is one of my favorites, but this scene has three of the best actors in the whole show. And it's Tywin. Nor should it be yours.
Speaker 4:She's a child she's flowered, I assure you, she and I have discussed it at length.
Speaker 5:There you see, you will wed her, bed her and put a child in her. Surely you're capable of that. And if I refuse, you want it to be rewarded for your valour in battle. Sansa Stark has a finer reward than you could ever dare hope for, and it is past time. You were, we d, I was wed. Oh, don't you remember Only too well. You should be thanking the gods for this. This is more than you deserve. Tyrion will do as he's bid, as will you.
Speaker 4:What do you mean?
Speaker 5:You'll marry Ser Loras. I will not. The boy is heir to Highgarden Tyrion will secure the North. You will secure the Reach. No, I won't do it. Yes, you will. You're still fertile. You need to marry again and breed.
Speaker 3:I am.
Speaker 5:Queen Regent, not some broodmare. You're still fertile. You need to marry again and breed. I am Queen Regent, not some broodmare. You're my daughter. You will do as I command and you will marry Loras Tyrell and put an end to the disgusting rumors about you once and for all.
Speaker 4:Father, don't make me do it again, please, not another word.
Speaker 5:My children.
Speaker 2:You disgraced the Lannister name for far too long. My children, the way you said that was such disdain, such disappointment.
Speaker 3:You felt for her like a little ounce of sympathy when she says, don't make me do it again. Yeah, that's the thing that's. When she says, don't make me do it again yeah, that's the thing, that's the thing, don't make me do it again. Because, but, honestly, like you feel for tyrian just as much too, because, yeah, like it's for him, it's an again situation, as he says too, you know, like tyrian bringing up his past too and how that was so hurtful for him as well. And I think with tyrian, the additional element that like kind of makes it, adds to the sadness, I guess, of it isn't just the fact that he, he doesn't want to see it. He sees it as like a misfortune for sansa. Cersei doesn't see it as a misfortune for doris she's just thinking that she doesn't want to be in that situation. But tyrian, he feels guilt and he feels shame about that. And it makes us feel for tyrian more because he thinks about sansa, I think, almost before he thinks about himself yeah, he's thinking about others.
Speaker 2:And and the way tylen says the girl's happiness is not of my concern, it's so cutting like I don't care, just wet her, bed her, and just do what you have to do because we need to have the north and and just like his commanding performance and he's just a master like.
Speaker 3:He shows why he's like a master strategist playing, playing his children like pieces on the chessboard not just that, like you also see, like cersei, like of course she does something, she acts so smug and everything and then just goes back against her. You know what I mean. Like she's getting a taste of her own medicine, basically. But it's not just that, it's also like like very, very flawed I don't want to say feminism, but you know what I mean. Like she's like oh don't, I'm not a broodmare, I'm not just someone that's, that's going to like just bring kids and going to be used for. Came to Sansa. She was like oh yeah, she's flowered, she'll be okay. What?
Speaker 2:else do you want? Yeah, Tywin's like you're still fertile, you need to breed.
Speaker 3:It's so like, yeah, it's so direct, but she was speaking of Sansa in that way two seconds ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and here's the difference between characters. You have Cersei being so smug because Tyrion has to do this, and once tywin is talking to cersei, tyrian, this says nothing. He's his face is blank because he he doesn't find joy like that in in seeing his sister, even though he hates her. He, he's not. He could have been like, you know what I mean. Like yeah, yeah, how does that karma taste? You know he could have been like ha, ha, ha, ha ha.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean. Like yeah.
Speaker 2:How does that karma taste? You know he could have been like that, but anyway, yeah it's. It's one of my favorite scenes. I watch it like every once in a while, cause it's the acting is, is the dialogue, everything about it's just incredible. We'll see what happens. Because now again we're thinking about Sansa and this poor kid, like she can't catch a break. Earlier in the episode we're thinking, oh, she's gonna marry Loras, she's gonna live in Highgarden, she's gonna be uh and she's gonna live out her her days in the Highgarden as as sort of a well, a princess and a lady, and it's a beautiful place. She could have kids with Loras, and now she's back to. She has to stay in King's Landing. Marrying Tyrion was probably the best thing for her in hindsight.
Speaker 4:Because he could protect her.
Speaker 2:Because I don't think if Tyrion doesn't marry her, then they would have figured out a way to do something to her. They weren't going to let. Sansa leave to Highgarden.
Speaker 3:I don't have anything else to add to that.
Speaker 2:I think that's it for our coverage of episode 5 of season 3, kiss by Fire. There's so many great scenes we just talked about and it's gonna be hard for me to pick my scene of the episode, so I'll ask you first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't not pick the Jamie Breehan scene. That's my favorite scene.
Speaker 2:I can't I just love that last scene we just covered. It's one of those 1a, 1b kind of things and I'm just gonna give the edge to even though I love jamie's not confession, but what would you call it the emotional. He's letting everything out. I'll just have the last scene, above it by like 0.1 okay yeah, they're both they're both incredible scenes. Okay, how about your rating for this episode? Out of 10?
Speaker 3:I'll give it like an 8.5 to an 8.7 somewhere, somewhere there maybe an 8.6. Like right in between.
Speaker 2:Okay, what do you think it's rated on IMDb?
Speaker 3:Oh, I already know, I checked.
Speaker 2:Okay, the last one was 9.5. This one was 8.9. I'm actually going to go higher. I'm going to go 9 out of 10.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:It just flows very naturally, and by the end I go, wow, that's really good, it all works.
Speaker 3:So a and you don't. By the end I go, wow, that's really good, it all works. So a nine out of ten, fair. You're convincing me to bump the score up a little bit, but yeah, so that's fair.
Speaker 2:I can't disagree with that so we're officially halfway through season three and our next episode for the podcast we'll be discussing episode six of season three, called the climb. Pretty obvious of what we're talking about they're going to be climbing the wall um, it'll be interesting to revisit it for me.
Speaker 3:Um, next episode, of course, and um, the rest of season three, including the red wedding. With this fresh perspective, having read the book, I can't wait for us to to cover the rest of season three and I hope you guys are enjoying this journey, and I'll recap as much as we've been enjoying talking about it. So, thank you guys, so much for listening to this episode of Dancing with Dragons. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at dancingwithdragons. It's the up-to-date with the latest Game of Thrones news. It's the update to the latest news from anything and everything related to George's world, whether it's the books, the shows and the sp-offs or updates related to our podcast and future episodes. Be sure you can find everything on instagram and, of course, be sure to add, listen and download our episodes on your preferred listening platforms and give us a rating and a review or a comment as well, if you get the chance. It would be appreciated. Thank you again.
