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Dancing with Dragons
Game of Thrones: S3 | EP2 "Dark Wings, Dark Words"
In EP 62 of the Dancing with Dragons Podcast, Tony & Minwa discuss the Stark children facing new challenges while key alliances and rivalries form across the Seven Kingdoms. We discover the true depth of Joffrey's monstrosity through Sansa's confession to Lady Olenna, and witness Catelyn's heartbreaking admission about Jon Snow. Bran meets Jojen and and Meera Reed, who help him understand his mysterious dreams and warging abilities
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oh, ladies answer. It is my honor to present my grandmother, the lady olena of house tarantula kiss me, child.
Speaker 2:It's so good of you to visit me in my foolish flock of hens.
Speaker 3:Very sorry for your losses and I was sorry when I heard of lord renly's death he was very gallant.
Speaker 2:Gallant and charming and very clean. He knew how to dress and smile and somehow this gave him the notion he was fit to be king.
Speaker 1:Renly was brave and gentle Grandmother, Father liked him, and so did Loras.
Speaker 2:Loras is young and very good at knocking men off horses with a stick. That does not make him wise, as do your fathead father make him wise, as do your fathead father, grandmother. What will Sansa think of us she?
Speaker 4:might think we have some wits about us One of us, at any rate. Hello everyone, and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire universe. My name is Minwa and I'm here with my co-host, tony, and we're here today continuing our recap of Game of Thrones, season 3. Today we're diving into Episode 2, dark Wings, dark Words. The episode first aired on April 7, 2013. It is directed by Daniel Minahan, who directed the season three premiere, valar Dohaeris, as well as three episodes of season one A Golden Crown, you Win or you Die, and the Pointy End All great episodes and the episode is written by Vanessa Taylor, who is the co-executive producer of seasons two and three of the show and who also wrote two episodes of season two, the Old Gods and the New, and Garden of Bones. She was also later nominated for an Oscar for Best Original Screenplay for the Shape of Water, which won Best Picture. So it's an episode with a very talented team behind it and it's a very great episode as well.
Speaker 4:Just to quickly recap what happens in the episode, robb Stark learns that Winterfell is destroyed by the Ironborn and that Bran and Rickon have disappeared. Brienne of Tarth continues escorting Jaime Lannister to King's Landing, sansa meets the Tyrells, arya runs into the Brotherhood without banners and Jon Snow struggles to earn Mance Rayder's trust as the Night's Watch returns to the Wall. The episode title is an interesting one as well Dark Wings, dark Words. It's not a very obvious or famous reference to Song of Ice and Fire, but in the universe of the show and the books it is an old saying about messenger ravens, referring to the fact that such urgently delivered messages are often bad news.
Speaker 4:In the episode we see such urgent stravens as Robb receives news of the death of Hoster Tully, as well as the sack of Winterfell and the disappearances of Bran and Rickon. So that pretty much sums up the episode in a nutshell. I can't wait to dive into it because it's an episode that's expertly written, with so many excellent character moments, things for us to dissect, dive into and talk about. It's one of those episodes where it makes you kind of reminisce on how great the show can be when they take their time and really include thoughtfully those moments that build the universe and everyone that you know and the dynamics between them. So I can't wait to talk about it. And how are you, tony?
Speaker 5:I'm sure you're excited to talk about this one as well. To me, this episode felt like a part two of the premiere, because we're catching up with everybody with the remainder.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's valid.
Speaker 5:And this episode. It kind of focuses on introductions and reintroductions and really focuses on magic, especially with Bran and the concepts of warging, with people with the sight, and I do want to just start with that and we can start with the episode up north, not beyond the wall, they haven't reached the wall yet but with Hodor, osha, bran and the two direwolves. It's always nice to see two direwolves on screen. Yeah, this is really done. You know it's summer. And Shaggy Wolf. Yeah, this episode is jam packed with introductions to very important characters and I think we should just start with whose name is Jojen Reed and Mira Reed, and Reed sounds familiar of a last name. That's because they're the kids of Howlin Reed, who was Vassal of the Starks and probably Ned's best friend other than Robert, or most loyal friend. Actually, before you respond to that, I do want to say that unfortunately there's no Daenerys in this episode. So sad face, yeah unfortunately.
Speaker 5:No Stannis and no small council from King's Landing and no Tywin. Okay.
Speaker 4:I'm happy with those.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I do want to note a quick note that we't uh talk about in the last episode is that in the opening sequence, winterfell is depicted with smoke and flames because it was recently sacked and burned down by the gray droids, but really it was the boltons that put it to the torch to jump off what you said about bran.
Speaker 4:um, actually I forgot to include him in my little synopsis, so sorry, but it's nice that we're starting the episode with him to make up for that.
Speaker 5:And boy did the author grow up. He looks so much older from season two.
Speaker 4:He does, he does. I mean this is like Bran growing up right Like by the time we see him in season eight he's like a man.
Speaker 5:Anyway, okay, let's start episode two of season three, dark Wings, dark Words. The episode opens with Bran dreaming of the first time we saw him in the series. It's kind of a carefree moment One of the last times the whole Stark family was together when he was practicing his archery. We even hear Ned's voice briefly, which makes you so nostalgic. From the pilot, like from the premiere episode which feels fitting, because this episode features all his children, like every all the star children are in this episode.
Speaker 5:I do want to ask you a quick question because I couldn't find it anywhere. Um brand wakes up from his dream and then osha says you're having one of your black magic dreams.
Speaker 4:I don't like black magic like and I don't know she was meaning blood magic, because I couldn't find any reference to black magic dreams if you're trying to find, like the canon, or continuity for the exact term, I would just say that the best explanation I could come up with is just the fact that osha, you know she's like maybe it's just like a word among the common folk to describe dark magic as love magic as uh black magic, black magic yeah, it's a very uh, like real life word that we use, that you know, in our world, like I don't know about you, but like that's what I got, like magic sometimes, like that's just how it is.
Speaker 4:so I would assume that maybe in the North, like they're not as familiar with magic, so that's what they would just call it, like black magic, you know, instead of direct relating it to blood magic. Maybe they don't know that has to do with, maybe there are different forms of it. I didn't look into that, to be honest. That's just my on-the-spot explanation for that.
Speaker 5:I mean, we see a lot of stuff beyond the wall that you know. They have wargs, they have all that stuff. We meet a warg up there, a wildling warg, uh, and we'll talk about him in a bit. Like I mentioned, we meet jojen and mira. Um, they're actually introduced much earlier in the novels, in the book, uh, clash of kings. They come to to winterfell as a guest and, uh, they're actually there when theon attacks the castle and they escape with brand. So the reason why they were pushed to season three is that dan and dave decided that it would have been too much to introduce these characters in season two.
Speaker 4:I think that was a good idea yeah, I feel like, um, if they were kind of around to just add to the context of how the reed family are like vassals of House Stark and how they have rich history, just, but it's not necessarily needed Now, it just it does kind of feel like they're just random characters that appeared out of nowhere. But you know, like they did explain that they were actively looking for Bran because they share the same power, right. So at least there's like some explanation. But I think that the books, how it is in the books, does kind of make a bit more sense, just to keep in line with the history of their houses.
Speaker 5:The Jojen is what they call a powerful and natural born greenseer. He could receive glimpses of the past, present and future in his visions, and he talks to brand when they meet about he saw his father's death. Interesting note from the book is that georgian tells brand that he had a green dream about a winged wolf bound to earth with the great stone chains. A three-eyed crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them. Georgian explains that Bran is the chain-winged wolf and the crow sent the reeds to break his chains. Mira said that when her brother told their father about the dream, he sent them to Winterfell for that purpose.
Speaker 4:This is a very magical-filled episode and I think unfortunately I didn't write the exact quotes in my notes, but like I just wrote, like the like, the gist of it. But towards the end Jojen says what matters the most Like I think it just means like in general is Bran. So I think that that's very interesting, because I would assume that Jojen at this point saw end of season eight and that's you know, that's why he's's like I see you and you're the most important thing, period, and I can't tell you that. So when I rewatched that scene I was like, oh, he saw season 8, that's it. As Jojen keeps being mysterious in the show, it's just something to look out for. Like oh, it was here referring to this or that, because I don't really remember Jojen the only thing I remember is that he played drums and love actually in the ending oh, yeah, yeah, I can't unsee him as that little kid like.
Speaker 5:Yeah uh, okay. So let's uh stay north, but let's go beyond and go and with uh, john and uh, I want to say john and the night's watch. Uh, let's talk about John and Mance Rayder. I love that Mance Rayder. He's still sniffing out if John's you know, a double agent, you know, and he tries to explain to John. Look, you know how hard it is to get all these he doesn't want to say savages and he had to kind of figure out a way to get them together. But here he explains how he did it.
Speaker 6:You liked him, I like you. But if you're playing this false, it won't be hard for me to kill you. I've got wild in blood in my veins. These are my people. I understand. Well. How could you understand? You want to protect your people. Do you know what it takes to unite 90 clans, half of whom want to massacre the other half for one insult or another? They speak seven different languages. In my army, the Fens hate the Hornfoots. The Hornfoots hate the Ice River clans. Everyone hates the cave people. So you know how I got moon worshippers and cannibals and giants to march together in the same army. No, I told them we were all going to die if we don't get south, because that's the truth.
Speaker 5:I want to learn more about the moon worshippers and what's the deal with the cave people.
Speaker 4:I'm sure there's a some info we can find there oh, definitely, george has every like nook and cranny of us a world like written and planned out, so maybe one day that's an episode for another day so I think it's estimated.
Speaker 5:They never say the number but I think in the future seasons uh, it was estimated like there was over a hundred thousand wildlings together, but that that was just a brief scene of them talking. And then we're introduced to a uh work from, like I said, a wildling war. His character's name is oral and actually he was killed. This character was killed in the clash of kings novel. He and eager with two of the three watchers that corn half hands party okay encounter. So uh, the third wiling was slain but but the part of oro spirit remained in his eagle. So technically he should not appear in the third season but he lives on in his working as an eagle. But the tv character or I, was more of a splice with another war character in the book called Varamir Sixkin.
Speaker 4:I know that they probably couldn't have done it, but it would be cool to see an eagle that has the spirit of a human. But I know that it would have been very hard for them to communicate that that's what was going on. It probably would have opened up a can of worms worms for uh theories and other other like possibilities for the show I do want to do an episode in the future about just it's going to be titled worry because it's kind of it's just really fascinating about working.
Speaker 4:I want to say, um, that's it's. It's kind of bugged me in a way that they had john not know what's working is because correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he like a warg in the books, like by now, like he, he did his right, like I, just I just had to like triple check because he is, and that's what the storks are known for. And the fact that they had john asked that's kind of just I don't know. It's like if there was some creative choice there of having john be unfamiliar with it because he was like the illegitimate child and then they, they told the others to learn about it. I think that would have been kind of okay, but it's just too much and I just wish that he just knew what it was, because it's more in line with his lineage and it should have made more sense. So, yeah, I just got like it's a tiny dislike about the episode they all have the ability to do it.
Speaker 5:I don't remember when he does it. I I'm really bad at remembering.
Speaker 5:I could read something and five minutes later, I just forget. So. When uh they ask, uh man's interrupts orals, uh warging, and ask what he sees, he sees the fist of the first man and he sees dead crows. And that transitions us to sam and the night's watch going back south, and this is just like a really fast scene of Sam being bullied again. We've gone back to when he first joined the Night's Watch and he just has one major bully and that's name is Rast. The only thing that I found funny and ironic is that this character, rast, keeps calling Sam piggy. Oh hey, rast, just a quick little thing. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Let's go to the riverlands and you spoke about the ravens bringing news and before ruse bolton shows up with the ravens, rob is there looking handsome, like you know. You know how he looks.
Speaker 5:No, sorry, and you have to listen, I'm over to this is saying that her mom always meant told her that you know, people from westeros are like stink and are savages. And it's funny because it's the opposite westeros. You say that people from across the narrow sea are savages. Savages is just hurled at one. Another right but interesting note is that roost calls talissa queen and I thought that was interesting it's just gross, like you know, showing that he's on their side uh, but I think this, this episode for rob is again.
Speaker 5:He's being to me. In this episode we see the growing resentment that uh car star cast towards rob. Just keeps he's becoming a malcontent. He's questioning everything like why are we doing this? This is stupid. This is your king. If he tells you to jump, you just do it. You don't question it. The one thing that Karstark does is drop a truth bomb or he foreshadows Rob's demise. Is that Rob says you don't think we can win this war? Karstark replies may I speak my mind, your grace? Rob says have you not been speaking your mind, Lord Karstark?
Speaker 4:And then he says you lost this war the day you married her, referring to Talissa. I mean it's like a mic drop moment from Stark and Obey, like a brutal honesty right.
Speaker 5:Yes, something that.
Speaker 4:Rob does not want to hear, but it's true, isn't it Like it is true?
Speaker 5:Yeah, if Rob was another guy who wasn't, I mean, rob is his father's son, he wants to be honorable. He's not going to be a womanizer like a like a robert, like robert would have been like okay to listen. You come with me, you're going to be my mistress, you're going to be my little in my side girl.
Speaker 5:Well, I have to get I have to get married to this fray, but don't worry about I'll be with you all the time. I just have to go over there and check on her once in a while. Uh, and that's it. But, rob, as I know I I we had intimate relations. I have to marry you. That that's just the honorable thing to do. That's one of those things that we can also discuss. When did rob lose the war?
Speaker 4:it was like I don't want to call it the first mistake, but like it was the key, I guess, mistake. Because you know, by marrying her he basically threw away the opportunity for marriage alliances and he ordered like any other ones. You know, like maybe if it was someone stronger than the phrase, then the phrase would have been okay with it, like there may have been some room there, but you know he married like a nobody from Essos, so it's not sitting well with anybody in Westeros. And you know you said something about the fact that you know he wants to keep his word and stuff. Soros, and you know you said something about the fact that you know he wants to keep his word and stuff. And that's like the fact that he didn't keep his word and didn't keep his word. Mary Frager shows that like he might not be his father's son.
Speaker 5:His bannermen are starting to doubt him as well, because he didn't keep his word and also because of the Jamie incident and everything that's happened. So it's just like you know all these it's like a perfect storm of's happened. It's just like a perfect storm.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's like a hurricane of everything wrong just happening.
Speaker 5:I want to do a little callback on us. When we talked about Michelle Farrelly and how she's a great actress and one of her best moments and we've come to that moment and when she has an admission of guilt to Talisa and she talks about how she was mean to John. But I think the scene is so powerful and so beautifully acted by her that, other than the red wedding, is probably her best scene of the whole series.
Speaker 4:I agree.
Speaker 1:Many years before that one of the boys came down with the box. Mr Lewin said if he made it through the night he'd live, but it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness, Listened to his rugged little breath, his coughing, his whimpering.
Speaker 1:Which boy? John Snow? When my husband brought that baby home from the war, I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring off at me. So I prayed to the gods Take him away, make him die. He got the pox and I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer, a murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a horrible death, all because I was jealous of his mother, a woman he didn't even know. So I prayed to all seven gods Let the boy live. Let him live and I'll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it, to make him one of us.
Speaker 1:And he lived, and he lived and I couldn't keep my promise. And everything that's happened since then, all this horror that's come to my family, it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child it's one of those uh what if?
Speaker 5:questions. What if she did keep her promise?
Speaker 4:I don't think that's an interesting what's if. But yeah, I I don't think she could have either because she can't.
Speaker 5:Her honor would have been too much to be like. I cannot raise this child as my own. When you are unfaithful, that's a heartbreaking scene.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sorry, I want to comment on the cat thing so badly, but when you talked about the honor in relation to this, it made me think that Ned probably did have his reputation tainted because of John. I mean, now it makes me wonder if, even though I said what I said about Rob and how this is, like I know it's more acceptable having an legitimate child rather than marrying an SOC, like it just makes me wonder if there was some way where it could have been forgotten and forgiven. I just, I guess to them it's just it's worse marrying an SOC rather than I'm sorry, I know, know, associate might not be the right the night, they're not the right word, but to them that's probably worse than an intimate child. If rob had one by now they probably wouldn't care, but but anyways, um, yeah, about, about cat.
Speaker 4:Just to go back to the scene, I think that, as you said, it's one of her strongest. It's her strongest scene, actually in the entire show, as you said, um, and I love that. It's a scene where you know we get this character. That's good, you know, like the sharks are good, they're good people, they're on the right side and everything, but there's still some darkness there, which is why and we love game of thrones all of them are kind of gray hair characters and it's a very dark side to cat because she she recognizes it herself, the fact that she's dark and she can't love a motherless child, even when she frames it in the most sad way she can't bring herself to do that.
Speaker 4:It's just so sad and dark and grey, but also I think it's powerful as a scene in Wildress and I like it, other than the fact that I don't approve of her doing what she did to John.
Speaker 5:It's deeply humanizing and, uh, complex it's. It sheds a light on, like, her struggle and, with grief and resentment, like makes her more than just a protective mother but a woman that's kind of struggling with the weight of the past regrets and past mistakes, and I think just it's so good, I mean. And then you have the stark music in the background, yeah.
Speaker 4:And then it's cuts. It's cuts to John, like looking so sad in the in the in the North, so it just it gets to you. And when I mentioned earlier on the episode that this episode has so many great character moments, this is what I mean. Like this is a defining moment for Kat in the entire series.
Speaker 5:This is right now at the top of scene of the episode. Yeah, let's quickly go to Theon Greyjoy. Last time we saw him was in Winterfell, and we see him again. And this is the beginning of Theon's journey into becoming reek, which is crazy, I think. When you're reading the books he just completely disappears, right, and you're like, yeah, he finally shows up and like I think the fourth or fifth book. And then so this person is having a pov and you're like who is this? And then you slowly figure out that this is theon. The torment that he's endured in ramsay's hand is so extreme, even though he's made questionable choices, obviously, and we can't overlook his portrayal to the starks. It's just does any person deserve that kind of dehumanization or torture? And you know what I mean the cruelty, you know, it's just so. It's so weird because at first you're like, yes, they call him, let's see. But then you begin to see what's done to him. You're like he needs a psychologist really quick to help him. That's bad. I mean, it's really.
Speaker 4:I mean this is just the beginning I, I have to be honest, like I could barely watch it, I I fast forwarded through the theon scenes because it's too much, I can't do that. I don't have it in me to to watch this again. I have to be honest, I can't. I'm not doing it Like I'm barely doing it. I'm watching it like on like two X speed. I can't do it. I can't, I can't.
Speaker 5:Funny because I watched the episode twice. I texted you yesterday and I said, yeah, I watched it a few days ago but I was really tired and I kept falling asleep, not because it's not good, but I was just really tired. And then yesterday I actually sat down and watched it on my computer and just kind of taking notes, and I go, man, I don't remember this scene, so I must have slept through the torture. I didn't watch it.
Speaker 4:Let's go to king's landing and I think please let's move on, let's go, let's leave the torture.
Speaker 5:And, uh, let's go to shay, and I think last week we talked about shay's. You asked me a question, do you do? I think shay is being genuine and with her, uh, what was the word?
Speaker 4:concerns over sansa kind.
Speaker 5:Yes, exactly, he said it perfectly her concerns and I think this episode proves that she's actually trying to look out for Sansa At this point. Sansa is growing, but she's still very naive when it comes to the real world of what she's still thinking. Well, Littlefinger's not in love with me, he's too old. She doesn't realize that that does not matter in this world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, she's, I think, like letting go of the. Like it's the last bit of her naivety, like her naiveness, like it's the last bit of it that we see here.
Speaker 5:And Shay is that that person from she's? She's introducing street smart. This is how the other people live. We don't have. You know, you live basically a life of royalty, not with Winterfell, but she's. You know she's the daughter of a lord, which is the closest thing as a. You know you get as a princess without being a princess. So I think every passing scene we get more and more you can see that Shay is actually looking out for her.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it felt quite authentic in this scene.
Speaker 4:Like I'm really interested in seeing how the whole Shea storyline will play out.
Speaker 4:I know that you have your feelings about her and the actress and stuff, but I feel like I just really am keeping an eye on her because I want to really dig into her interactions with everybody because you know, know, obviously we know how she's going to end up and what's going to happen later on.
Speaker 4:So I'm keeping it in my mind every time I see her on screen. So that's why I kind of doubted her, uh, or I want to keep it in mind with the premiere and why I kept mine now and I just think that at least maybe, um, her relationship with Sansa shows that she wasn't this like horrible person, like she was being authentic, she was looking out for her and, even though we will hate her, like at least it shows that she did some good during her time in King's Landing, like she wasn't just there to plot and scheme and you know, and like betray someone or whatever. She was there, like she was actually looking out for someone and cared about someone there. So it like redeems parts of her character and and, yeah, I'm just gonna keep keep an eye on her. Every time we see her, just to have more thoughts on her and let's stay with.
Speaker 5:She has a scene with tyrian later on and it's one of those actually a funny scene, not like a laugh out loud moment, but it's very cute. They're having this little spat because he says something like sansa's very beautiful and of course you know he says something like sansa's just who wouldn't want to be with her, or she's just so something to that effect and she gets. I don't know if she gets upset, but it's playful and it is an example of uh, of it's very relatable because you can see that argument between a couple and like a rom-com or something, uh, I mean, who hasn't experienced that? Let's go back to sansa, because I'm jumping all over the place with sansa. So, so Loras comes to pick up Sansa because Margaery wants to have lunch with her or some kind of date. Sansa's looking in the mirror making sure everything's perfect. She's so giddy because she's really nice to Loras Poor thing. I mean they would make beautiful babies.
Speaker 4:I mean, yeah, she was, they would, would, and she was smitten, I guess. But I mean, we see it, we see the illusion fade instantly, don't you, don't you think?
Speaker 5:yeah, because she's like oh, you don't remember me, you gave me the flower he goes. He wasn't really thinking about girls, yeah he's thinking about.
Speaker 4:Really, he said something like of course I did and she was like, of course I did and she was like, of course you did, like what I wasn't, you know like the girl that you've been secretly admiring or something. So just it's instantly phased in. You can see kind of her expression drop, which I just think is so uh, like that was funny to see. But as we see with sansa, as her time or like her storyline progresses slowly, slowly, like the just scene by scene, episode by episode, like the clamor of life, and everything just fades, you know like the rose-colored glasses fades away, episode by episode, and there's barely anything left now. If anything, it was maybe just Doris.
Speaker 5:Well, at the beginning of this episode we hear the introduction of Olenna Tyrell, so let's talk about that. I want to say one thing about her. She's one of the most captivating, sharp-tongued characters in the show. I mean, her wit is legendary, she's formidable, she's strategic. I mean she knows how to play the game, she's cunning and has a complete disregard for the niceties you expect from a noble woman. She's just straight to the point and I just love her. I love her.
Speaker 4:I love her too and that's the thing that I love when we get a good TV in general. Her introduction, her scene that we included earlier in our podcast episode, this episode of the introduction it's kind of like a perfect character introduction for a TV, one of the great ones, I guess, in the show, because we see her and we immediately know what type of person she is and we immediately love her and we immediately see that she's different than everybody who's already seen it in the show. So she comes in as like a breath of fresh air and immediately captivates us and makes us love. Love her because you know she comes in and the first thing that she says, I think, is kiss me, child. And she gives her hand, sends us a kiss.
Speaker 4:Like what type of person would say that? Like that's a sassy grandma, you know what I mean? Like I love that. And she just says everything outright. You know, in a show where everyone is being so like political and like diplomatic and saying things in very flowery language, like not saying what they mean, she just said everything very bluntly, very directly, and we really love her for that, because no one else on the show is like that. She says you know my son is a ponderous oaf, and my husband as well Like she's real and she's funny and it's just such a scene stealer, and it's the perfect character introduction, I think, for her.
Speaker 5:She's amazing. Sansa has been so close-lipped for so long. She doesn't really want to talk ever, and the first time she just says what she's thinking. And the truth is right here. Because Olenna's like just talk, she wants to know about Joffrey. Olenna's like, just talk, she wants to know about Joffrey. And I was thinking in my head when I was watching this episode. I said, wow, this was the beginning of the end for Joffrey. Right here, half the Sazas tells her.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, as you said, it's the beginning of the end of Joffrey, and I think that's right. Then in there there was like this quick.
Speaker 5:Well, let's listen in here.
Speaker 2:Are you frightened child? No need for that. We're only women here. Tell us the truth, no harm will come to you. My father always told the truth. Yes, he had that reputation and they named him traitor and took his head.
Speaker 3:Joffrey. Joffrey did that. He promised he would be merciful and he cut my father's head off and he said that was mercy. He took me up on the walls and made me look at it. Go on, I can't. I never meant my father was a traitor. My brother as well. I have traitor's blood. Please don't make me say any more. She's terrified.
Speaker 2:Grandmother Just look at her. Speak freely, child. We would never betray your confidence, I swear it. He's a monster. Ah, that's a pity. Please don't stop the wedding. Have no fear, the Lord Oath of Highgarden is determined that Margaery shall be queen. Even so, we thank you for the truth.
Speaker 1:When Sansa said he's a monster, he goes yeah what a pity like she wasn't like oh my god, marjorie, what are we gonna do?
Speaker 4:she's like what a pity yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, like it's not a pity that. Oh, it's a pity, he's just, he's a monster. No, it's like, oh, it's a pity that I'm gonna have to kill him then, like you could see it in her face, like if you're listening, uh, dear listeners, go back and re-watch that scene. It's just a minute on youtube. It's so clear in her face. And then she follows that up with saying like oh no, but like the oaf of high garden, referring to her own son, she was like he, he's determined that marjorie is queen, but didn't say it's a witch king. You know, like I'm 100% sure that's at that point, like that's it. They already had the plan. It's just a matter of like sticking its house until they're able to do it until the wedding. Yeah, I wish that scene was like it's so good, but with the music. So I just wish it was a bit longer and we got more of it, because it's so good, but yeah.
Speaker 5:I mean, I think when you look at the scene that's just like half. I think the whole scene with the introduction is close to five minutes, I think.
Speaker 4:I can have more of it. I love it so much. And a small detail I love that they included in this scene is Sansa's love for lemon cakes and the fact that Elena knows this. So it's is Sansa's love for lemon cakes and the fact that Olenna knows this. So it's like Sansa has a reputation for loving lemon cakes. In Westeros they prepared it for her already, you know, at the tea party, so it's really good. I'm with Sansa. Lemon cakes are really good. It's a nice little Easter egg. It's a widely known fact that Sansa loves lemon cakes.
Speaker 5:All right. So we're going gonna stay in king's landing, we're gonna do joffrey with cersei and then we'll go to marjorie and joffrey. Last week we had the dinner scene with marjorie, joffrey, loris and cersei and I thought it was really funny. Because we just see cersei, just her blood is boiling because she cannot stand marjorie and this episode. Joffrey is being fitted for some kind of outfit. Cersei does not fail to dig in and shoot little insults to Margaery. On the side he's giving a little piece of cloth. I mean it's little, it's like a sepal cloth. This is what's gonna look like and it was like a flowery. He goes, no flowers. Cersei goes and says we can use that for Margaery's gown. It's more than enough fabric. Oh, so funny, so sassy so sassy.
Speaker 4:I I love these like moments. I think game of thrones. I said it a couple of times now it's a comedy when you, when you, when you want to see it as a company, it can be a comedy.
Speaker 5:It's so funny but she also says you know, we can't, basically we can't trust her. Like what's the deal with her being with the all these lowborns and stuff like that? She cares about them and he's like I don't care about them. So so it's like he's she's trying she's still trying to manipulate him. Kind of scary that every episode he's feeling more and more disdain towards his mother. Like everything she says bothers him. Like she's trying to explain stuff to him and he's just like it's like the most boring conversation ever. Yeah, it's most boring conversation ever.
Speaker 4:Like yeah, it's, it's bugging him but he can't help. But like fall prey to like you know, let's fall prey. That sounds like a bit weird but it's. It's fine because it's Cersei. But like believe hurts, it's like just some extent because that just like informs how he treats Marge during the later scene. Like okay, like he's having this growing like disdain for her. It's still like resonating with him on some level. You know what I mean.
Speaker 5:Like like it's still working, cersei's words are still kind of working that's I think let's stick with joffrey, because I think this marjorie scene with him is outstanding, because we get, uh, joffrey, who is so smitten with her, he's all my lady, my this very flowery with her, and this one he's kind of giving her the third degree of asking her what were you doing with Renly? How can you be with Renly? I just once he starts digging in with like really hard questions for her what's the name of Natalie Dormer? Is that her name?
Speaker 4:Dormer, dormer.
Speaker 5:Dormer. Yes, sorry, natalie, you can come on the show and I'll apologize. You can see the realization on her face that this is a different Joffrey that she's seeing. His tone and demeanor are different and she instantly turns into this frail. And she's very naive Like this poor little woman. Oh, woe is me. I do want to mention that Renly's sexuality is brought up a whole bunch in this episode.
Speaker 5:I don't know if you noticed, I mean it's brought up by Cersei, it's brought up by Joffrey, it's brought up by Jaime. At the end I'm jumping everywhere. Sorry he mentions that he wants to make Renly's perversion punishable by death. And you can see Margaery's face. My brother would be put to death if found out. Her face is straight as an arrow. She goes um.
Speaker 4:You do whatever you need to do like she's like navigating this conversation in a way to like to make it as safe as possible for her but also just to like steer clear of anything. We talk a lot like about how marjorie is so clever, and I think that we really see it in this scene. I think the scene also happens after the sound, so when where she kind of has it's in the back of her mind that you know he's a monster and everything so like that's why I think she was also very prepared on like how to steer the conversation with that in her mind. She knows not to like play with fire or say anything. She knows. Okay, go, go and say the safest thing you know, like like fluff him up, make him feel good about himself. Just as long as it's not, the attention isn't on you and the conversation is actually a very dangerous and frightening one because he like greets her with a crossbow. He's saying that he's going to go on a hunting trip, but the crossbow is pointed at her the whole time, like for most of it, at least in the beginning, I guess that's how he greets her. It's not just that. I think he was interrogating her, he was threatening her Like. This is a very frightening situation for her, especially after the Sansa thing. The episode then ends with them kind of pointing the crossbow together at the mirror, like it's a very excellent shot where you see it from kind of like the mirror's point of view, like from their perspective, looking at the mirror, and they're holding the crossbow at themselves.
Speaker 4:And the way that I kind of interpreted it, that scene, like the visual meaning of it, is the fact that she's kind of like killing a part of herself in order to survive. Do you know what I mean? Like that's kind of like how I read that image, because she can't show who she is anymore to Joffrey. She has to always like present herself with a mask and she does that. You can, you can argue like she has been doing that and presenting herself as like the bubbly Marjorie Tyrell. Any bit of that has to like be secondary.
Speaker 4:Now the first thing is survival. So that's how I kind of interpreted the ending of that scene and, um, like her, her and Joffrey kind of standing together is kind of like how she to mesh with him and get a part of herself. That's just how I interpret this. I could be reading too much into it, but I think that's I don't know. Framing that scene in that way had to have meant something, and that's what I interpreted. Interpreted it as, and I want to know more of your thoughts on the scene I.
Speaker 5:What I got out of is that marjorie now knows that joffrey is drawn to violence and like shock value. So, while pretending to be innocent, she adds like a little bit of darkness to make him look down on renly like, oh yeah, you know he was, so you know I try to make a child to him. And blah, blah, blah he. He wanted to do something forbidden and she kept kept putting Renly down. So in doing this she's basically fueling his twisted desires. You know even more, sansa's young. She doesn't play the game, but she was always constantly afraid. She couldn't handle Joffrey.
Speaker 5:Even Cersei is now unsure on how to control this freaking monster that she's raised, but Margaery, on the other hand, she knows how to communicate and manipulate this guy that she's going to marry. So while other people try to flatter him or make him follow their lead, she understands that he wants somebody who is going to share his twisted view of the world, and her way to get into him is not by seduction, because that's not going to work. He's not really into sex at all. We've learned that in season two when he had those women brought to him. And what did he do? Instead of doing what the normal person does? He tortures them. So she's far too smart to win over Joffrey with her sexuality, as she does with any other man, and if I was a Joffrey I would have just handed over the kingdom to her within one look and I'm like whatever you want me to do, that's fine, sorry.
Speaker 4:And then you make fun of me for saying majestic once.
Speaker 5:I'll take that out so my wife can't hear it. That's good, but when I see this scene, it's the more the when I see this scene it's the more. When I see the scene with marjorie, the more and more I love seeing her play this game and I just love her as a character. Prior to seeing this uh season with the podcast, we're doing like marjorie wasn't in my scope of all favorite characters. Now that I'm like focusing and we're deep diving, I don't know, I feel like she's just she can play the game. Uh, one little note before we move on. This crossbow scene is not in the books, it's just something written for the show. So, uh, for adding this scene because it's one of the best. Let's move back north to almost where the riverlands are. I think they're close to there's aa, gendry and Hot Pie.
Speaker 4:They're still like on the run from Harrenhal with their swords and Gendry kind of teases her about like, oh, you could have ended the war because now they know who she is, you know it's not the secrets and she tells them what Jack and Hagar, and so he's like you could have ended the war, like you could have told him to kill Tywin, joffrey, whoever. And she's just like I did what I could and like it is a very like popular topic amongst Game of Thrones fans. It's also like a humanizing flaw, I guess, or like a humanizing mistake that she did. She comes up with the idea of going to Riverrun because she knows that's her grandfather's and that's what she tells them. But then they end up meeting the Brotherhood Without Banners, which is like this outlaw group, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 5:Yeah, this group was initially created by soldiers and sent by Eddard Stark. Remember he sent Beric Dondarrion to hunt down the mountain. It's like guerrilla warfare. So their soldiers grew and grew and grew after the War of the Five Kings and their focus is protecting the common folk from all sides of the conflict. And every member is knighted by Beric. We don't see him in this episode I think we'll get to see him in the next one but we do meet a fascinating and awesome character.
Speaker 4:Yes, thoros of Myr. He's like singing along and politely threatens them and kind of just wants to interrogate them, takes them to a bar, asks them how they escaped Harrenhal and then ends up freeing them. But then, unfortunately for Arya, the Hound waltzes in. He didn't waltz in, he was captured by them and he basically like outs her as a Stark Right as they were about to escape. So that's where Arya's arc ends for this episode.
Speaker 5:And I think that's the Hound's first appearance since he quit and said peace out to Joffrey at the Battle of Blackwater. We're going to finish this episode with Brienne and Jaime, which we have not seen since the season two finale. They get a lot of screen time. We get Jaime and Brienne and Jaime, which we have not seen since the season two finale. They get a lot of screen time. We get Jaime and Brienne talking and again when I mentioned about Renly's sexuality, jaime starts teasing her about Renly and how Renly's relationships with guys was like the worst kept secret in King's Landing. Everybody knew. How could you not know? And brienne takes uh offense to that. They see a I guess just a regular person, commoner, walk by.
Speaker 5:That's the moral question. Is jamie says you need to kill him because if he he knows me, he recognized me he's gonna find somebody and say, hey, I saw the king slayer on the king's road or traveling, whatever. What? This not hard to find giant woman was blonde. Yeah, brienne is not gonna do that. She's never gonna kill an innocent person. So we knew that that will come back, bite them and but we didn't realize it would have been in the same episode yeah, yeah, I forgot that that's happened in this episode as well.
Speaker 4:I thought it would happen in the next and that's where the episode ends, actually. Um, but something that I want to mention too. I want to mention two things about the scene very quick. Um, I we talked about how we're so excited to see their storyline play out, and re-watching the scene, um, it made me happy that they kind of did it the way that they did. Like, did the storyline the way that they did, because in the books there's like a third person with them, right, like a Lannister cousin.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So omitting him was an exodus idea because it added to the tension between Jaime and Brienne, you know. And then like the possible, like you know, like the romance between them, it's not the same if there is a third person. They're just complaining about whatever, about whatever, um, and something that I love that they included here as well is that in this episode you see that jamie is showing the tyrian in him. You know, cersei and tywin wouldn't dare talk to brienne this way, but like jamie is out there like trying to find out more about her, um, questioning her, you know, trying to find out her backstory, and he's making jokes, but like he's teasing her, but he's not like he was teasing her in a mean way, yes, but like in the books he was meaner, but he's just speaking like Tyrion would.
Speaker 4:It was very Tyrion of him. He's just trying to make conversation, um, and of course it's all for his own knowledge and his like gain as well. Like he wants to have the upper hand and figure out like her motives, to tease her to, to plot, basically, but that's still not something that people like Cersei and Tywin would do, like they're very proud, they would remain quiet and just like insult her and nothing else, but he was questioning her making conversations. So I just wanted to say that I liked seeing that a lot, because it's Jaime being more Tyrion than he is being more Cersei and I love that. I love that whenever we see him like without her, you see kind of how much better he is. You see the the better Lannister side and him come through as we do here and how like her, her influence on him is just fading away, fading away, fading away. So I just I really like I didn't like that.
Speaker 5:So they have a little dueling session, which not really. I mean, he's kind of has manacles on he's and he's got his manacles on he's and he, they're exhausted and she has armor, so he has all this against them, but without that, I don't know what happens to brianna, because I think he could have figured out a way to defeat her, but who knows, and again, not killing that innocent guy he comes back to bite them. At the end we see a bannerman of a house fray come with the flayed, uh, men on the cross, and they know exactly who that is. They know that's jamie, and jamie's like oh, my father's gonna pay you, blah, blah, blah. And he says why would I want your money? If I take your money, then, uh, my head is going to be chopped off by the king, meaning King Rob. That's how the episode ends, with them being taken hostage. And it's the beginning of the end of the Jaime Lannister that we met and the beginning of the Jaime that we began to admire and like Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we mentioned how season three is like a pivotal season for all these characters, and that applies to Jamie.
Speaker 5:Why don't we say our scene of the episode?
Speaker 4:There are so many great scenes, but I think my favorite is the scene with Elena and Sansa and Marjorie.
Speaker 5:Yes, that's great too. I mean, they're all great. Is it a cop out? And they're all great, is it a cop-out if I say I have a three-way or two-way tie?
Speaker 4:No, that's fine.
Speaker 5:Or a three-way tie. I love that scene, olena's introduction, I love Catelyn's scene of admission of guilt and then the Margaery scene with Joffrey. If I had to rank it, I'd probably do Catelyn, olena and Margaery, but they're all fantastic scenes and all were given time. We we were there with them. My only dislike is that we there was many moments in this episode that we were with characters for like a minute and then, boom, transition to the next. You know, we were at the north for like maybe two minutes, boom next. And that's my only like pet peeve of the episode that's fine.
Speaker 4:I agree with you. I feel like it was very jam-packed, but like I still think that it has a lot of like strengths, let's say value like I still think it's a very good episode all right.
Speaker 5:Uh, what is your rating for dark wings, dark words?
Speaker 4:maybe like an 8.5, 8.6. Okay, that's what you gave the last one, right, 8.5 or?
Speaker 5:8. Then I'll give this an 8.5, 8.6. Okay, that's what you gave the last one, right? 8.5 or 8.6?
Speaker 4:Then I'll give this an 8.6. It's better than the last one, maybe Like a little bit, so like point by point one.
Speaker 5:I'm going to do 8.3. I like the first episode better than this one. Well, that's going to be all for our coverage of Season 3, Episode 2. Next podcast we'll be talking about Episode 3 of Season 3, called the Walk of Punishment.
Speaker 4:Ooh.
Speaker 5:Yes, it's funny. I see that title and the first thing I think about it was Cersei's Walk of Shame. But that's not until the end of Season 5.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, that's not until the end of Season 5. Yeah, yeah, that's why I said my ooh, because I was like that's not expected. Yeah, we're very excited to continue our coverage of Game of Thrones Season 3. To keep up with the podcast and everything related to George's world, be sure to follow us on Instagram at dancingwith__dragons and, of course, be sure to add, listen and download our episodes on your preferred listening platforms. And give us a rating and a review or a comment as well, if you get the chance. Truly appreciate it and thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast.
