Dancing with Dragons
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Valar Morghulis
Dancing with Dragons
Whispers of Power: Varys Unveiled
Varys’ journey from a beggar in Lys to a powerful figure in Westeros raises questions about the true nature of power and loyalty. We explore his complex motivations, relationships, and the moral ambiguities of his character throughout the episode.
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Once I had served the sorcerer's purpose, he threw me out of his house to die. I resolved to live to spite him. I begged. I sold what parts of my body remained to me.
Speaker 1:I became an excellent thief and soon learned that the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse. Step by step, one distasteful task after another, I made my way from the slums of Myr to the small council chamber. Influence grows like a weed. I tended mine patiently until its tendrils reached from the red keep all the way across to the far side of the world, where I managed to wrap them around something very special the sorcerer. Hello, my old friend, it's been a long time. I have no doubt the revenge you want will be yours in time, if you have the stomach for it.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire universe. My name is Minowa and I'm here, as always, with my co-host, sony, and we're here for our 60th episode of the podcast. It's insane that we've been doing this for over 60 episodes so far and for over a year and a half, and in the blink of an eye would hopefully be at 100 episodes. This episode we're doing character deep dive on someone who has been going a little viral on the internet lately and honestly, it's about time and he'll be pretty happy about it. Varys and his monologue on power is all over TikTok lately. There are people reacting to it, acting it or just appreciating it in Varys himself, and all the attention is well-deserved and understandable. And we're doing this episode because of you guys, our dear listeners. We put up a poll on the Instagram page at dancingwith__dragons on what our next episode topic should be, and Varys got an overwhelming support and it makes us happy that you guys chose him as well. It was fun to involve you guys. I'm definitely planning to do more polls in the future, as well as character deep dives and of course, our DMs are always open to suggestions. But we're so glad that you chose Varys.
Speaker 3:I had a fun time researching him and I know Tony did as well. What did you think of it, tony? Did you have a hard time researching Varys? I did discuss this before recording, but I gather that it wasn't as easy as it might have been for me. It wasn't as fun, I guess. Maybe, I don't know, it's fun to talk about him, but yeah Well, hello everyone.
Speaker 2:I want to say that I figured I put the poll up and I put Sordavos versus Varys and I go this should be interesting. Sordavos is such a lovable character and Varys is such an interesting unique character from the show and it should be close. And I didn't realize and I kept checking every couple hours and I go that's pretty close. And then I woke up the next day and it was like 70 to whatever. And I go, oh okay, I guess they really want to hear us chat about Varys. And as soon as I started looking up because't I'm trying to reread the books and the show and all that, like there's so many little intricate details you forget. And I try because we don't really get much of his background, it's just little dribs and drabs and I start looking and I go to like the Game of Thrones, like Reddit stuff, and I go Varys and I go, oh my goodness, and I started reading. And then I started looking up other stuff and next thing, you know, I'm in the couch for like three, four hours just writing and reading stuff and then I found myself literally rereading chapters and I go, why am I doing this? Because there's a final. I'll talk about that later, because that's something that one of our listeners or Louis, sent the question. But no, I'll talk about that later, because that's something that one of our listeners, or Louis, sent the question. But no, I really had fun. I'm excited for this episode.
Speaker 2:Varys is one of those characters that you know you're instantly hooked because you don't know what he is. It's not so black and white when it comes to his character. You know we're introduced to him in the third episode of season one, when ned gets to his first small council meeting and you know he seems nice, but then, at the same time, he has that look, he has the robe, he's, he has the, he's bald, he's pale, he's like what is he? It's like a wizard or what is he like? He looks devious. I'm not trying to be like, you know, judge a book by its cover, but, come on, he looks kind of mysterious and devious at the same time. Okay, I want to know more from him. You know, I want to know what's like, what is his true motivation, and that's the biggest question that I can pose to you or anybody who is a fan what is his true motivation?
Speaker 3:All right, I'm so glad that we're starting there because I have my own like paragraph about it when I did my research. I'm so excited to discuss it and I think it does have to do with Ferris's origin story. I thought that we were going to go deep into it and discuss it, but I'm glad that you included that clip at the beginning of the show because it just perfectly sums it up so concisely. You know where he came from, his background, and just to give you a little bit more context as to why I'm going to say what I'm going to say, you know he was born in Lys.
Speaker 3:As a slave he traveled with a group of actors and like beggars I think all around the free cities and until a sorcerer in Myr made Varys's master an offer that he couldn't refuse. So Varys was sold to the sorcerer. Varys became the type of person that he is, if you understand what I'm saying, and then basically he was discarded and left on the streets to die. And then he worked as a thief. He formed an alliance with Illyrio, which is very interesting because basically Varys was kind of like a I don't want to call him a Robin Hood type of figure, but interesting because basically Varys was kind of like a I don't want to call him a Robin Hood type of figure, but he was a clever type of thief that would steal objects from lesser thieves or other people and then the Liridur would basically get the objects back and then sell them back to the original owners so it was a very interesting business that they had going there.
Speaker 3:Um, so that's how Varys basically got rich and then made, slowly made a name for himself until he he gained a lot of power and found himself on the small council. So that's just to add a bit more context to Varys' story and what he said at the beginning of the episode, what I'm going to say about his motivations. So I found Varys' motivations very interesting because he does all of this. He does everything that we've seen in the show and in the books, but to me he doesn't really seem ambitious. You know he's paired finger, for example, but this is fingers. An ambitious person I never saw that in in veris.
Speaker 3:When we see him he doesn't want to gain much. You know he never says, oh, I want this in exchange of this. He never, ever bargains or something like that. He doesn't value titles, lands, money the way other people do.
Speaker 2:Little finger as the prime example and that's why I I'm sorry, that's why he's not trusted, because people in west roads are like what do you mean? You don't have?
Speaker 3:ambition. Why don't you want?
Speaker 2:why don't you want wealth and power and lands? What's wrong with you? What do you mean you what? What is this for the realm stuff?
Speaker 3:that's exactly what I was gonna say, because all he just says it's for the realm and he's acting in the realm's best interest, but of course no one's buying it. And I don't know if I entirely buy it either. I don't know if you think that it's the entire truth, but to me it's not just that I don't see it as him doing something for the greater good, because I don't think that he's a very, very objective person to me, and the way I interpret him basically is that he climbed up the ladder, he's where he wants to be and he just wants to survive. He doesn't want to lose his position. He was at the bottom of the ladder, as I said, like on the street, homeless, you know, and like disfigured, basically, if I'm allowed to say that, and he got himself to one of the most powerful places in the realm, which is, you know, a seat at the small council, and I think that he's utilizing his skills to maintain the status and not lose it. Like the secrets excite him and he feels as though it gives him power, sure, but he just wants to maintain his way of living. He doesn't. It's why he doesn't really have any true allegiance. He just wants to remain beneficial to everyone, but mainly to himself, like he's a survivor and he intends to remain that way and that's just the only motivation. That's, I think, driving him.
Speaker 3:I don't necessarily think that it's just for the realm, it's just for him to stay alive. So when he does all of this, he's like what's going to keep me alive, what's going to keep me safe and secure? And other people like me, like, for example, the little kids that he employs, he like there are there. There's like talk in westress about why he has his little birds and his spy network of children, but like it never came across as though he was an abusive person. It just came across that he actually cared for them and doesn't want people to be in the same position, that he was like kids. And you know he compared the game of thrones to a dangerous body of water and says keep on paddling. That's one speech with sir. I'm sure we're going to talk about um, and he just wants to maintain that. That's just my interpretation. I don't know if you see what I see or if you have another explanation as to what his motivations are. Or is it truly further?
Speaker 2:in the show his motivation or his desire is to have somebody in the throne. That's of a targaryen descent um, and he is. We see that scene with him and illyrio in season one when aria is spying. You know what was it, where the dragons are the dragon skulls. But I think in the book he wants a certain Targaryen on the throne and I'll get into a little spoiler bit later on on which Targaryen he wants on the throne. It's not Daenerys, by the way.
Speaker 2:What I find the most fascinating thing about Varys is that he is not a man of stature, he's not a powerful man. He's not a powerful man. He's not menacing. All he uses, like he said in that clip, is words, how he can slither his way to the top, without really how he can get to the top with violence, but not by him. He can find ways of other people doing his dirty work. That's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 2:The reason why this character works so well is because of the actor who portrays him in this conleth hill, and it's it's funny because I don't really see him. I I look through his filmography and his tv. Uh, it's a lot. He's a working actor. I think game of thrones was his most um, uh, his biggest role, but no, he's a great job. He did an amazing job playing Varys.
Speaker 2:Varys is a master of subtlety, like he's not physically imposing or charismatic in any way that many other characters are. You know you have Tyrion and Ned, not Ned he's not charismatic and Littlefinger, yet his intelligence and his resourcefulness makes him like a major force and how the, the power of the politics in west rose unfolds. So he has a quiet influence that seems more dangerous and he finds a way to again slither his way to the top and talk to the king, or the hand of the king, and that's how he gets his things done. Coupled with his ever-present air of mystery, makes him one of the most multifaceted characters in the book and the show, and we could probably do like three parts of just talking about Varys. To be honest, you know we're going to do this one episode, but we could probably do another one in the future, like part two.
Speaker 3:Well, I honestly could, because I think that George might have a lot to say about Varys as well. You know I mentioned how Varys is a character that's been compared to Littlefinger, as they're both, you know, kind of like the slithery, sneaky characters of George's world, and George was actually asked about this, about their relationship and their dynamic with one another in his world. I don't know if he was referring more to the book version of these characters or the show version I'm guessing the books, of course. But when asked how he would describe the relationship between Littlefinger and Varys, he says it's his adversarial. Both of them know a lot about the other, including some very damaging things. They're essentially in a stalemate because they know that if one reveals what they know about the other, the other would reciprocate and they could both be destroyed.
Speaker 3:I think little finger has a better idea of what veris wants than then veris has an idea of what little finger wants. Little finger is an agent of chaos who likes to be unpredictable and succeeds in that. There, like just very directly, george says that you know, little finger is the one that is an agent of. Yes, he, he wants to mess things up kind of for his own gain, very essentially want to do that. He's not an agent of guess.
Speaker 3:You would never describe him in that way. You know even his manipulation and his tactics. They're not chaotic, they're very calm and calculated. He doesn't want to to mess things up unless they're like very, very well done, well orchestrated, and that's why I think also backs up the fact that he kind of also values his place and it's in his security um. But I found it interesting that um george says that little finger has a better idea of varus than varus has of little finger, indicating that maybe little finger has more better idea of Varys than Varys has of Littlefinger, indicating that maybe Littlefinger has more power because he is an agent of chaos. You know he is kind of more one to watch out for. So we should definitely do an episode on Littlefinger as well, because he has history as well it's interesting.
Speaker 2:You said that George said they could both destroy each other, and it made me think about the United States and Russia back in the day when they were like they were in a stalemate. They know that if one launches a nuclear weapon, the other one's going to launch and they're just going to destroy each other. So they're always like face to face. They're both like if I tell people what I know, and the other one's like well, if I tell people what I know.
Speaker 2:But they're, they will if I tell people what I know, you know, but they're not going to do it because they know, once one missile is launched, everything is just going to blow up and and they're both going to be done, uh, so I think that was kind of a funny way of putting it.
Speaker 3:It could be true. You know that george always says that he gets his inspiration from history that just made me think about the USA and the USSR.
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk about Varys', not upbringing, but how he went from Essos and where was he In Meereen.
Speaker 3:Varys His beginnings. He was born in Lys as a slave, but then he traveled with a group of actors.
Speaker 2:What do they call people from Lys Lysine, something like that, I think, because slave, but then he traveled with a group of actors. What do they call people from lease lysine, something like that, I think, because, um, it sounds like a cleaning product you have over here. It sounds like lysol lysol.
Speaker 2:There you go, let's see. Um no, so uh, he comes from let's just let me just say the across the narrow sea. How do you get from there to the small council? So back in the day when Daenerys' dad, the Mad King, was spiraling into madness, he was distrustful of every single person, even in his council. He didn't trust his son. He thought that Rhaegar was conspiring to get rid of him, so Rhaegar was conspiring to get rid of him, so Rhaegar could become king.
Speaker 2:Then he hears of a eunuch in Lys who was really good at acquiring secrets and information and just decided to bring him to court and immediately made him the master whisperer. And I don't really know if that was the position of master whisperers was something that was created by the Mad King, or if that was something that was already there. So I'll have to look into that. I should have looked into that. That's my bad. So anyway, he became a trusted advisor because he was rooting out traitors and people who were trying to conspire, so he was really good at it Already. He figured out to create this network of spies and his little birds, as he calls them, and right away he became a trusted ally.
Speaker 2:And during Robert's rebellion. When Tywin is at the gate of King's Landing we have Tywin, who was, you know, mr he was supposed to be. You know, he was the Mad King's hand for 20 plus years. Once he saw that the tide was turning and Robert was going to win, he goes, let me just join Robert. So he sacks King's Landing. But before they open the gate, it is Varys who tells the Mad King do not open the gate, do not open the gate. Pycelle convinces Aerys to open the gate and Jaime kills the gate. Paiselle convinces eris to open the gate and jamie kills the mad king.
Speaker 3:Blah, blah, blah but I kind of want to like backtrack just a little bit and answer something that you said, which is about the role of the master of whispers. Um, we should honestly be talking more about um or doing more episodes about westerosi history that a lot of people don't know about. I just googled it um, like even we need a refresher on this. But the role was created because King Amegor I, his wife, tyana of the Tower, was basically his mistress of whispers. At that point it was said that speaking secrets in the Red Keep was foolish, as rats and other vermin were her spies and she tortured many enemies of the crown and basically she was the first um mistress of whispers. I guess she she had a role and we should dive into that more and talk about it.
Speaker 3:I always say that we should go for those types of older sargerian kings, but it's so hard to talk about them sometimes without spoiling house of the dragon, which is why we've avoided it for so long. But yeah, uh, tony, you should know this. That wasn't created by eris. We have, we have seen another master whispers and dancing with dragons and dancing with dragons on house of the dragon oh yeah, yeah but they don't really make sense.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny, because they don't. They don't really call him that right yeah, I don't think so, but no, yeah, they don't they don't refer to him as that, but we know what he's doing, so we automatically lump him in with Varys and Littlefinger. But I completely yeah, see, it's a brain fart Sometimes. I'm old, I'm getting old, we're human. I'm almost oh, I didn't want to say what I'm almost. Yeah, you're right. I mean sometimes, like when you're trying to write down every little detail, you forget the simplest ones.
Speaker 3:What happens? What happens? Don't worry, I forgive you. There's some, but there's something that I really wanted to get into in this episode and something that I mentioned in my intro and it's the reason why I guess all of you chose ferris and why he's been going viral and that's for an incredible scene that he has in season two of Game of Thrones when he says a riddle about power and basically where it lies. Let's listen to it.
Speaker 1:Power is a curious thing. My lord, are you fond of riddles? Why Am I about to hear one? Three great men sit in a room a king, a priest and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword, kill the other two. Who lives, who dies, depends on the sellsword, does it? He has neither crown, nor gold, nor favor with the gods. He has a sword, the power of life and death. But if it's swordsmen who rule, why do we pretend kings hold all the power? When Ned Stark lost his head, who was truly responsible? Joffrey the Executioner or something else? I've decided. I don't like riddles. Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow oh, I got chills just listening to that.
Speaker 3:And if you see the edits on tiktok with like the, the music playing in the background, it's, it's amazing. It makes you remember like the greatness of Game of Thrones. Um, and people were discussing like the meaning of the quote and appreciating it. On TikTok and on social media you see people in the comments discussing what's could mean and what's like the actual solution. You're like what's? How can you respond to that? You know, tyrian just says I don't like riddles, but what's the actual like interpretation? So george was actually asked about this and he gave a very like long but very interesting answer that I think would be of interest to us all. So he says the whole subject of power is fascinating to me. We're not surprised, george, I'm joking. So he says how does power work? What's it based on? And Verus' riddle, which I was very glad they included in the show.
Speaker 3:I think it's one of the most important parts of the book. He asks Tyrion who has the real power in this situation. The rich man, the priest and the king are each telling the sellsword to kill the other people. So it's actually the sellsword who has the power, since he's the one who has the sword in his hand, he has the power of life and death over the other three, but he's going to obey one of the other three because of the illusion of power.
Speaker 3:When I see that scene played out in my mind's eye, these are three old, fat guys and none of them can do anything themselves to the sellsword, and yet they command him because they can summon other sellswords. Well, why do all the other? Our societies are built on the structure of sand and you see that periodically with the falls of great empires and nations. That's amazing. And if that just doesn't capture Game of Thrones as well, why it works so well, why it's so fascinating to us and George as well, I think the most significant part of his speech is the line about a very small man can cast a very large shadow.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's kind of reflecting on the perception of power, right, and even those with little real power like himself, like he wants a slave. He kind of manipulated his way and played the game and created an illusion of dominance and he believes that illusion and perception are often more what's's the word? Potent than true, than direct power. And then his philosophy, I think, is what varies, is always operating from the shadows. He's pulling strings behind the scenes. He understands that those who believe they hold power are often the most vulnerable because they're not aware of how little control they actually have. So it's easier for them. So I mean that's I'm just so happy, like george said, that they included that because they originally didn't have that in the script.
Speaker 2:And I think the person, the writer who was, who wrote I don't know who wrote that that particular episode, I guess he was rereading the chapters and he he found it and he goes oh my goodness, I forgot, I got to and he added that in at the last second.
Speaker 2:So I was happy that we had a writer who knew the books and actually read the books and he kind of just let me just do a little refresher, let me just read this when you think about monarchs like why is is power is not inherent as something that's constructed and we believe in it. Okay, your bloodline is because you get to rule over me, you're superior over me. That illusion of power can be enough to make people believe and act on it and kill, and we're killing for the king. And it's just like how many wars have in in our, on our lives and this earth have gone on because people are listening to. A so-called king or ruler doesn't have to be a king or a prophet or whatever. It's just kind of where, like, if just us little people just to take it in our own hands, it'd probably be a different world right now.
Speaker 2:I mean like I think that's in a way I mean, look at what's happening in the world right now. We have people who I don't want to get into this Hold on.
Speaker 3:Do you want to like, like, like backtrack a little bit, because?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I don't care. I'm just going to say that what I'm trying to say is that we live in a world where very few people hold the vast majority of wealth and get to reap all the rewards, while the many, many, many of us are working and toiling our butts off and we're we're just fine with it, but we don't see what's happening beyond, like we. Yeah, I let me just stop there, because I'm just gonna go on a rant that I don't want to really want to on this podcast.
Speaker 3:maybe I'll do a another podcast in my in the future interestingly enough, I don't know, like how much ferris would agree with you. Just to go back to the topic of Varys, I think that, first of all, the intersection between power and faith and what you believe in is very, very interesting to me, and I think that the way that George depicts this in his world is a very realistic case, no matter which era of history you're going to talk about or what exactly is going on in the world. But but at the same time, I think that it's interesting to see how, like why, people believe in in things that they do. You know what I mean, like when you I thought we're getting, we're getting so off topic right now. But like, for example, with varus, why does he not really believe in anything? Why does he not like root for, for any person? You mentioned that he's also a targaryen loyalist, but I I don't 300 say, I believe that he's 100 targaryen loyalist because he I don't feel like that's his core value.
Speaker 3:So why do you believe in, in what you believe in? Basically, you know what I mean and like that plays a role in how you view power. And that's the same thing with the religions in the world and the world of song, wise and fire, like minisandra, for example. You know what I mean. Like it's just interesting to think about why, and like economical things aside, which is what you talked about, which is like valid and stuff I don't know, I just like, of course, all that, but you know what I mean. Like I don't know, I want to say something about the intersection between power and faith and people's motivations, and I think that I just want to say that I think that George depicts a very accurate depiction.
Speaker 2:I always say that we could do this an episode. That speech alone is just worth its weight in gold, because we could. Obviously. We're just, we've been talking about it for 10 minutes now. Just that little speech speech there and that scene, right, there is why it's just one of the many, many scenes in season two that make the show so great.
Speaker 2:We actually have some questions. I let me just. We have five questions here, uh, three questions and two comments actually. So, uh, let me just ask the first one. It's from shan film forger, our friend.
Speaker 2:She says but he's actually a mermaid. Right, I have to know all of george's descriptions proving it. I think when we did a episode about theories uh, this is one that you were so happy to bring up because it was so like fan theory-ish, like, oh, he's a merman. That's how he got to Dorne back to Meereen in less than a day. From what I've seen, there's no solid evidence in the Song of Ice and Fire novels to confirm that Varys is a mermaid, and it remains entirely speculative. George has made it clear that Varys' backstory will be explored in greater detail in future books, but so far there's been no indication that he has any connections to mermaids or the like, and I understand why people will do the fan theories. He lives by the water. He made that little comment to Tyrion in season two. Remember when he says oh, something about the water, he just keeps paddling.
Speaker 3:Yes, one of the best quotes that he says.
Speaker 2:Actually I don't have the quote with me, but he says something about he gets thrown in the sea or something. Anyway, if you have it, you can just go ahead.
Speaker 3:So Varys says, the storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish, the big fish.
Speaker 2:The big fish. I'm leaving that in.
Speaker 3:No, please don't.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's funny, come on.
Speaker 3:This is all because of Yoongi, if you know, you know. Anyways, the storms come, okay, the storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish and I keep on paddling. I referenced this before when I talked about how he's such a survivor. He he doesn't want to like, he intends on remaining a survivor for the rest of the rest of his life. So that's why he's not like settling for any situation that's gonna put him at any risk.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I mean? Like it's, honestly, even though I would say that this is his motivation, I feel like it kind of goes at odds with him serving the mad king, but I think that that's just the most secure place for him, even with the mad king's. Like madness, because I mean, he, he can play into that I don't, he never did really but like it's the most secure place for him. You know what I mean. Like it's better than being on the streets to him. He still has a bed, he still, you know, can take care of other people. So I'll just say that, yeah, that's just.
Speaker 2:That's varus in my eyes we had a question from raiden336 says varus died the way danny said he would for the exact reason why he was executed justified. I'd say that's a good question or a good comment, because I I want us to dissect the scene here between denaris and and various, because I think it's one of his best scenes and I like and I like how denaris is very like stone cold, killer eyes like you don't betray me and I'll kill you, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But I just love this, this, this scene, and I just want us to. Here we go.
Speaker 1:You sent words to Essos to murder Daenerys Targaryen. Your grace, I did what had to be done To keep yourself alive. Lord Varys has proven himself a loyal servant.
Speaker 2:Proven himself loyal quite the opposite had to be done to keep yourself alive. Lord verus has proven himself a loyal servant. Proven himself loyal. Quite the opposite. If he dislikes one monarch, he conspires to crown the next one.
Speaker 1:What kind of a servant is that the kind of the realm needs? Incompetence should not be rewarded with blind loyalty. As long as I have my eyes, I'll use them. Okay, I'm just gonna stop it there, because I'll use them.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm just going to stop it there, because when she tells him that, did you see how he his tone of voice changed? Yes, like he was offended by the way she said that.
Speaker 3:I think it's one of the few moments we see Varys speak that way.
Speaker 2:I think we saw him speak that way when Tyrion says something to him in season two and he kind of his voice, the tone of voice changes.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, says something to him in season two and he kind of his voice, the tone of voice changes like yes, yes, it goes deeper, kind of yes, and I just love the way he just says I'm not going to be loyal just because you, you have to. Uh, I will be loyal to the crown, but to a certain point I'm not going to be loyal, if you're mad or whatever and um, but anyway, let me just, we'll hear the rest.
Speaker 1:I wasn't born into a great house. I came from nothing. I was sold as a slave and carved up as an offering. When I was a child I lived in alleys, gutters, abandoned houses. You wish to know what my true loyalties lie. Not with any king or queen, but with the people. The people who suffer under despots and prosper under just rule. The people whose hearts you aim to win. If you demand blind allegiance, I respect your wishes. Grey Worm can behead me or your dragons can devour me, but if you let me live, I will serve you well. I will dedicate myself to seeing you on the Iron Throne. Because I choose you? Because I know that people have no better chance than you.
Speaker 2:Demanding blind allegiance? That sounds very familiar, anyway.
Speaker 3:This is season seven, Tony. This is one of the seasons that we can't really take seriously.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just saying that the way he said if you require blind allegiance, I'm talking about real world now.
Speaker 3:Oh my.
Speaker 2:God, but no, let's finish this.
Speaker 1:Swear this to me Varys If you ever think I'm failing the people, you won't conspire behind my back. You'll look me in the eye, as you have done today, and you'll tell me how I'm failing them. I swear it, my queen.
Speaker 3:And I swear this, If you ever betray me I'll burn you alive.
Speaker 1:I would expect nothing less from the Mother of Dragons.
Speaker 2:I would expect nothing less from the mother of dragons. So, raiden, your comment was he died the way Danny said he would, and she was true to her word.
Speaker 3:She was always true to her word. Then suddenly they decided you know what?
Speaker 2:no, this is season 7, which we talk about a lot, and this is one of the better scenes of the season. She just looks so amazing there. Anyway, I just you ever seen Modern Family?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When Phil says he's attracted to powerful women.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't remember that he goes Condoleezza Rice, michelle Obama he named just black women. He goes wait a minute. In that moment I think he convinced her because she appreciated him being forthright and she probably never seen that. You don't really see that often when you're talking to you know, a king or queen, like people are scared or trying to. They're walking on eggshells, so to speak. You know we don't want to offend you, but he's like you know what? If you want, if you want me to just follow you, just to follow you, then just kill me. I guess I can't stand back and just not tell you if you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 2:That dynamic is something I wish we had. If Berenson was still alive, that would have been funny because he had a relationship with Rivera as well. They're both in the same small council. I'm just throwing stuff out there. So that answers your question or comment there. Raiden, while we're doing little clips here, I just want to add a couple more, but I thought this was kind of a foreshadowing. This was all the way back in season two, when um varus learns about daenerys not learns about her, but he that she's still alive this morning I heard a song all the way way from Qarth, beyond the Red Waste.
Speaker 1:Daenerys Targaryen lives. A girl at the edge of the world is the least of our problems. She has three dragons. But even if what they say is true, it'll be years before they are fully grown, and then there'll be nowhere to hide. One game at a time, my friend nowhere to hide.
Speaker 2:Indeed, when she rains fire on king's landing but he's not there. I have a question here from caden underscore. Crippin asks are there any big differences between book and show? Varys and that's the one that I spent the most time researching and writing because there are a lot of big differences between show and book. Varys, like most of the characters, once you get, once you read them all, you'll kind of be like you know what was the biggest surprise. Is this, this, this, this, this, this character?
Speaker 2:Just to start off, varys is not a point of view character in the novel, so we don't get to see his POV at all. So his actions are witnessed and interpreted by, like Ned Stark, tyrion, cersei, arya, when she hears the people talking in you know where the dragon skulls were, and I think maybe sansa will mention him once in a while. But those were the characters where he interacted with the most. Uh, and game of thrones shows him to be a little more caring to his little birds, treating them kindly and offering them like rewards for their service, or however, but in the book he's a little less nurturing. So varus uses kids whose tongues have been cut off or cut out. He doesn't cut them himself, but he prefers them. In those conditions. This darker aspect of his persona disappears in the show. So his counterpart in the show is more gentler to the kids, so he's not like this ruthless a-hole. And, like I mentioned before in the episode, he was a master of disguise and we don't really see that. Actually, that would have been too comical for me.
Speaker 2:And the show's so serious like Game of Thrones for him to like be in a dress and a wig and makeup. Tyrion would have been like just like busting out, laughing or something, just for like a moment of, and I don't know if that would have been like with his character. So anyway, there are different things in the novels that I could say, because it was in the book and the show he does help Tyrion escape after Tywin's murder, but he doesn't join him in the. In the show he joins him, but in the novel he remains in the red keep and hiding. Okay. So I kind of made a mistake. So, like show Varys is concerned relies on finding a capable leader on for the Iron Throne, whoever that is. But book Varys is like his intent is to put a Targaryen in the Iron Throne but, like I mentioned, it's not Daenerys. So what happens is spoiler alert. Here we go. If you haven't read the book, minwan says she's okay, she kind of heard this already. You haven't read the book. Minwan says she's okay, she kind of heard this already. I won't spoil the last page because I think it's fascinating. I'm just going to spoil a little bit. Spoiler alert Three, two, one, okay. So in the fifth book, varys and Illyrio get together again and they have. This plot At first was to put Viserys on the throne, but then we find out there's a character named Yungryph.
Speaker 2:He is introduced as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen claims to have survived the Second King's Landing and escaped to Essos. In the show, rhaegar's kid and son and daughter are killed by the mountain. In reality, yungryph is not Rhaegar's son, but a pretender created by Varys and Illyrio. So what happens is they plan to present Aegon to challenge Daenerys' claim to the throne. So Young Griff is a well-trained, charismatic young man with a compelling backstory. He's been basically trained since birth to act like a king, to talk like a king, despite his false identity young Greek police. So he believes he's an Arthargarian.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:He aims to take the Iron Throne with the support of the Golden Company. His appearance creates a significant threat to Daenerys, especially with the support he's garnering. What they truly want to do is either put Aegon in the throne or have Aegon say hey, this is your nephew, right? That would be her nephew, correct? No, yeah, yeah, Rhaegar was her brother. I'm all like confused now. Rhaegar was Daenerys' brother, so that would be her nephew, Like Jon, is her nephew right?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, anyway, uh. So this is the big storyline that was left out of the show and was replaced by John being son of Liana and Rhaegar and then him being the Aegon Targaryen character, but we didn't get anything out of it, right, aegon Targaryen character? But we didn't get anything out of it, right? So anyway, uh, this is going to be interesting because this is how is we? We leave off with a trying to sack the city and it ends like that. And we have a comment from Lewis who says he Lewis Lulu review says I have no question, but Varys is cameo at the end of a dance with dragons. It gives me chills every time.
Speaker 3:Meanwhile, no question, but varus's cameo at the end of a dance with dragons gives me chills every time.
Speaker 3:Meanwhile, we'll find out in about four years he's trying to be a little cheeky our friend there, maybe, honestly, maybe, or or uh, I just catch up on the book stuff before reading the actual books. I'm joking, I I don't want to actually do that, but I do think that, like, because my reading pace is not like the fastest, then I think that like it would be really like beneficial or like interesting to do episodes on people like young griffin, let's just talk about, like those abandoned book plots, like, and I'll just try to catch up, you know what I mean, I'll try my best, and and because I know that they're so interesting and they won't see the lights of day in the show, of course we won't see them in live action. So we should do something like that. I should spoil it you know what.
Speaker 3:It's fine If I can't catch up.
Speaker 2:You are so smart Because you just gave me the great of a series we could do abandoned book plots. There you go. Yeah, that's perfect. I said do you underestimate my genius? And you said, yes, I don't see you appreciate it. Okay. So, um, he's talking about the end of the book and varys comes out. I'm not going to say what happens, but it's bone chilling. The hairs on your body are going to perk up and give you goosebumps. Once you get to that, and hopefully by the time you get to that, we actually have Winds of Winter, and you could just continue straight on. So that's one of the scenes that I'm on, one of the plots that would have been included in the show, but we don't get All right Spoiler alert Done. We're done with spoilers. So we're finishing up the episode here and I wanted to ask you what do you see Varys as? Do you see him as a hero? Do you see him as a villain, or do you see him as one of those characters that are in between?
Speaker 3:you don't know what to think of um, I see him as definitely a gray area type of character. For sure, he's not good, nor is he bad, and I think that that's just because he doesn't do anything to to really be classified as good or bad. He acts in like a certain way, but I don't think any of it is unethical, you know what.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's not, he's a very gray area character, and those gray area characters are the characters, I guess, that make Game of Thrones so interesting in what it is Like. You know him, jaime, it's going to be said for almost everyone in this universe, but he's, I think, like a prime example of someone that's just seems to be.
Speaker 3:he's not a spectator, he's a player in the game of thrones, but again, he's not like so he's not as much of a player that, like, seeks ambition and wants to you know what I mean like he doesn't want to win this game for himself he's not.
Speaker 2:He's not self-serving like little finger and cersei, but he he's also not like altruistic. His belief in the greater good often justifies action that causes harm. So that's the true like. His true nature is ambiguous and he's a character that works like from the shadows and balancing the, the principles, with realities of power. So blah, blah, blah. You know what. You know what I mean Like. So yeah, I mean you could see him totally as a gray area and I don't see him as a hero because, like, I don't, just I'm not jiving with the.
Speaker 2:He's serving the greater good, because deep down, he's not driven by personal power but the idea of creating a peaceful Westeros. I'm not totally saying, oh yeah, I believe him. I would believe if Ned would say that I want a peaceful this, I want to have a prosperous. I would go oh, ned, I believe you. But when it comes from Varys, I'm like no, I'm not. Because it's just, it's too much manipulation from him to be an honorable piece, because I don't see any honor in him he does he does help tyrian in many ways, like he's, he warns him about stuff.
Speaker 2:He warned ned even though he knew ned wouldn't take his advice, but he said it anyway so he can get in good graces with ned. That's how he plays the game. You know, I'm not. I I know ned's not gonna say anything, but let me like, even when he went to visit ned in the cells, in the black cells, like he said, why would you tell cersei that you knew about the secret? And that's us. We as the audience are like yes, why no? Why ned? Why did you? Why would you say something so stupid? You know he has those moments of helping and then he has his moments with the narrows, like he's trying to actually be loyal to her. But then his past comes back and you know we, we get the scene in season eight with him being killed, and you know, so on yeah, I think that's definitely where veris would lie, for for most fans and or appreciators of george's world, neither good nor bad.
Speaker 3:But actually came across a very interesting fan theory during my research and um, of course the merman one is hilarious and we we enjoyed talking about it because it is funny, um, but there's another one where it might actually make you think or wonder, I don't know. This theory basically says that why did the sorcerer need to use there, why did he need to use a body part of a random child? You know, because that's what he was at that point. The explanation that this theorizer says that varus might have royal blood, that's kind of been done before in game of thrones. You know where someone's royal blood was chosen and then like sacrificed or like harmed, or you know, because of their blood. You know, we've seen melisandre choose gendry for like whatever she needed to do with her magic.
Speaker 3:Um, and you know, this person says that, oh, actually varus could be Aegon, which I, of course, I don't think is true. Um, they say that. You know, it explains how Varys knows the right to keep, where only the Targaryens know the right to keep, and stuff like that. But I don't, I don't like that. I just think that, um, it's interesting because, like you know, it makes you wonder. Why did that sorcerer choose the random kid that was Varys for his ritual? Why not someone else? What made him so special and interesting? It's an interesting thing that makes you wonder.
Speaker 2:Before we go, I have a question for you that I wrote down. If you could have Varys' spy network, who would you want to know about the most?
Speaker 3:In the world of A song of ice and fire. Yes, like to my own business, so I don't. I'm not that curious um wait a minute.
Speaker 2:You don't like tea?
Speaker 3:I thought you liked tea I mean like I like hearing it sometimes, but I'm not the biggest gossip you know I wrapped up all you're like.
Speaker 2:You know I need to know everybody's business no, no I don't like tell you like, okay, I'm, I have enough going on in my mind.
Speaker 3:I don't need to know everybody's business. No, no, I have enough going on in my mind. I don't need to know what other people unless it's what they're dealing with could damage or could hurt me, then okay, that's one thing, because you're going to be looking out for me. But just gossip, I don't think I'm interested. It depends who I am as well. If I was someone like Sansa or Arya, I don't care. Gossip, I don't think I'm interested. Like, it depends who I am as well.
Speaker 2:like if I was someone like sansa or aria, I don't care, I don't know, I don't know if I was, if I was the king, I would say varus, I need you to know, I need you just to look out for anybody who's conspiring or somebody who has ill intentions against me. Like, if people want to talk and say whatever or they're making a joke, that's fine. But somebody who has true, like I want to know who my enemies are, like tell me.
Speaker 2:Like I want to know who I need to be worried about, that's the yeah and I'll say go go, go out and and tell your little birds or whatever, and give me the info yeah, that's, that's like it's welcome, that's like what I said, like but if I'm not just a commoner harm me and we're like yeah, like if someone wants to harm me, then he wants to come and warm warn me, then sure, that's like, that's not gossip, that's that's protection, that's that's good yeah, I'm a commoner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm be like okay, is my wife unfaithful? What's going on? Where is she going?
Speaker 3:like if I was sans I wouldn't want to tell virus. Like, oh, is cersei talking, you know trash about me. Or if I was marjorie I wouldn't want to. You know, like about marjorie.
Speaker 2:Or if marjorie we can do, the plot sounds like it's no, who cares, it's just if it's a matter of like life and death, and then okay, fine, come and tell me, but otherwise no this has been a fascinating episode um shining the light on varus, and I think that I want to put the audio of the last scene that varus is in in the game of thrones, season eight.
Speaker 1:It was me I hope I deserve this Truly. I do. I hope I'm wrong. Goodbye, old friend.
Speaker 3:Lord Varys I, daenerys of House, targaryen, first of my name, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons sentence you to die. Dracarys.
Speaker 2:At that point the show made us feel bad for Varys.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's how Varys ended his arc in the show. His arc is alive in the books and hopefully we'll get to see it in the next one, Winds of Winter. We should have a clicker every time we say winds of winter on this show yeah ding, ding, ding.
Speaker 3:Winds of winter I just want to say that when we started this podcast for some reason I think it was in our original like plan we thought that we'd be doing these character deep dives, like once every couple of weeks, and I honestly think that we should just really do that again or like stick to that plan or do them more regularly, because I had so much fun talking about Varys and just showing him a little appreciation and you know we can never run out of characters in Geordi's world so.
Speaker 3:I this wasn't our first one. We've covered Mad King before in the past as well. I just think it would be so much fun to talk about all the different characters, and if there's anyone that you or your listeners want us to cover, then please let us know on Instagram. We would love to know what you guys would want to hear from us about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think what we'll do is we'll keep putting polls up for our next, not our next one, but in the future I'll put a poll up of characters and see who wins the poll. That's going to be all for our 60th episode of dancing with dragons. We thank you all for listening and tuning in, so follow us on social media. We have instagram dancing with underscore dragons. There you can keep up with the podcast. I put up stories uh, you can keep up with when we are going to post the episode, when we put up prompts for you to send us questions. We put up reels and all that sort of fun stuff For those listening on Spotify, apple Podcasts, iheartradio, any other of the millions of podcast platforms we appreciate, if you like, rate, share, comment. All that good stuff and until next time, peace out.
